Favoriting Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from December 9, 2024 Favoriting

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

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Favoriting December 9, 2024: Arvind Narayanan, author, "AI Snake Oil"

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Playlist image Favoriting

Today: Arvind Narayanan, author, "AI Snake Oil"

AI isn't living up to its hype. In healthcare, criminal justice, finance, and social media moderation, AI is repeatedly failing to bring the benefits promised by Big Tech. Author and Princeton computer science professor Arvind Narayanan explains these failures, and what we can do about it, in his new book “AI Snake Oil.”

AI Snake Oil: What Artificial Intelligence Can Do, What It Can't, and How to Tell the Difference, by Arvind Narayanan and Sayash Kapoor

AISnakeOil.com, the newsletter from Narayanan and Kapoor

• PDF: The Princeton Web Transparency and Accountability Project (2017)

UnitedHealth uses AI model with 90% error rate to deny care, lawsuit alleges (ArsTechnica, Nov 16, 2023): "For the largest health insurer in the US, AI's error rate is like a feature, not a bug." Excerpt:

The lawsuit argues that UnitedHealth should have been well aware of the "blatant inaccuracy" of nH Predict's estimates based on its error rate. Though few patients appeal coverage denials generally, when UnitedHealth members appeal denials based on nH Predict estimates—through internal appeals processes or through the federal Administrative Law Judge proceedings—over 90 percent of the denials are reversed, the lawsuit claims. This makes it obvious that the algorithm is wrongly denying coverage, it argues.

But, instead of changing course, over the last two years, NaviHealth employees have been told to hew closer and closer to the algorithm's predictions. In 2022, case managers were told to keep patients' stays in nursing homes to within 3 percent of the days projected by the algorithm, according to documents obtained by Stat. In 2023, the target was narrowed to 1 percent.

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Artist Track Images Approx. start time
  Arvind Narayanan, author, "AI Snake Oil"
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Favoriting
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  Mark's intro  
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  Interview with Arvind Narayanan  
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0:04:54 (MP3 | Pop-up)
  Mark's comments  
Favoriting
0:47:52 (MP3 | Pop-up)
Waveshaper  E.P.R.O.M.   Favoriting
Favoriting
0:55:33 (MP3 | Pop-up)


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Listener comments!

Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 5:59pm
chresti:

Hi Mark and techtonicians!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:00pm
Will thee SG OCNY:

Good evening Mark Hurst and all!!!
Avatar 6:00pm
tak:

alo
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
mistercaz:

Good Evening
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
ultradamno:

Mark! Techtonicondas!
Avatar 6:01pm
joe_rosevear:

Hello, all!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
Will thee SG OCNY:

the design is still bad!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
tom tom the pipers son:

looking forward to this...thanks mark
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
Deano de los Muertos:

Hey Mark, folx, and whatever big tech companies are spying on us!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

Mark! I get to listen live tonight. Yay!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
newton:

AI greetings
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
tim:

Hey Mark! Snake Oil? I'm all ears when I'm not cheering loudly!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
newton:

I am here only until my meeting starts
  6:02pm
Deb from California:

Hi Techtonic Folks. :)
.
Avatar 6:03pm
joe_rosevear:

↳ Deb from California @6:02
Hi, Deb!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:03pm
Spikey BXL:

Hi Mark, luddites
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
Peter from Saranac Lake NY:

Hello Mark and techies!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Greetings, Mark and seasonal mark-downs!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

I'm psyched about this interview. I just added the book to my "order this for the library" list. I do non-fiction collection development at my library job.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
tom tom the pipers son:

i have, but just read intro to ....'eye of the master, a social history of a.i.' by matteo pasquinelli
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:06pm
Spikey BXL:

🐍 oil
Avatar 🤖 6:06pm
MarciB:

Looking forward to this show!
  6:06pm
Sam:

I built a robot that’s sentient. At least that’s what he claims.
Avatar 🤖 6:06pm
MarciB:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:04
I'm going to do the same!
Avatar 6:07pm
joe_rosevear:

↳ Sam @6:06
Yes, I claim I am sentient also.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:07pm
DjLorraine:

Great topic. (Also, what's up with those large drones in the NE?)
  6:08pm
Sam:

↳ joe_rosevear @6:07
Right? Who am I to judge?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
Bas NL:

Hi Mark! Hey all!
  6:09pm
su:

wondering how long till a drone hits a satellite
Avatar 6:09pm
joe_rosevear:

↳ Sam @6:08
My point, exactly!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
Mark Hurst:

Hi chresti, WtSG, tak, mistercaz, ultra, joe_r, tom tom, Deano, Wendy, newton, tim, Deb, Spikey, Peter, KfHP, MarciB, DjL, Sam, su, and Bas - glad you've joined us!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:10pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ DjLorraine @6:07
Thanks, DjL... what drones do you mean?
  6:11pm
Deb from California:

↳ Sam @6:08
Joe and Sam ... LOL ! #TRUE
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm
dale:

↳ DjLorraine @6:07
probably looking for the ceo killer with night vision.
Avatar 🤖 6:13pm
MarciB:

"diffusion of responsibility" - that's one way of putting it!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm
tom tom the pipers son:

↳ tom tom the pipers son @6:05
in intro pasquinelli gives the example of how labor like truck driving is not thought of in terms of intellligence yet when a.i. does it it is "intelligent" the author alslo cites "?someone?" who said that all activity/labor by hand takes as well as represents intelligence
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm
mistercaz:

↳ dale @6:13
they may have got him, according to thee internets..
  6:14pm
Sam:

↳ dale @6:13
He’s in the housing projects in fuckin’ Boonton!
  6:15pm
Sam:

↳ Sam @6:14
That was a Sopranos reference.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm
dale:

↳ mistercaz @6:14
yes - just curious if the drone sightings end now because of that. tonight will tell.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:16pm
tom tom the pipers son:

↳ tom tom the pipers son @6:13
pointing out a.i.'s prejudicial marketing in relation to labor/admin relations
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:18pm
Folsom:

Mark, have you used Kagi search? I saw doctorow said he uses it.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:19pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Folsom @6:18
aware of it but haven't paid up to subscribe
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:19pm
DjLorraine:

apnews.com...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:20pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ DjLorraine @6:19
thanks
Avatar 6:20pm
joe_rosevear:

Hold on. Arvind said, "They don't have common sense." Begging your pardon, but this is AI. AI is *human-like* by design. I propose that it *may*, in fact have, common sense, at least to some small extent--an extent that is likely to grow.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:21pm
Webhamster Henry:

I'm here for the snake oil!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:21pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ joe_rosevear @6:20
The lack of common sense in AI has been the subject of research for years - decades, even. Well documented challenge in the field.
Avatar 6:22pm
joe_rosevear:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:21
So, is the cup empty, half-empty, or half-full?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm
tom tom the pipers son:

seems criminal justice system has "evolved" from mug shots to pre-crime
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:24pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Applicable: "The Worst Person in Tech 2024" voting is open
Not Ideal: It's a Google document — forms.gle...
  6:24pm
Deb from California:

↳ joe_rosevear @6:20
Ummm ... I know a lot of people that don't have common sense. So ... the objection is ... ???
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:25pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ MarciB @6:06
yay!
  6:26pm
Hugo (NL):

I was just redding a piece about D. Graham Burnett whose views are very interesting. About attention, and the monetasation of attention
  6:26pm
Danny in Poughkeepsie:

The place I worked until April banned the use of AI in the coding of the systems we worked on
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:27pm
Will thee SG OCNY:

↳ tom tom the pipers son @6:24
some guy looks like he's going to commit a crime, get them before they do... the near future reality of minority report
  6:28pm
castor:

Regarding “common sense”, this is at least one aspect of the problem, known as the “frame problem” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_problem
  6:28pm
Marie in Chicag0:

Another great topic and expert--thanks, Mark!
Avatar 6:28pm
joe_rosevear:

↳ Hugo (NL) @6:26
monetization
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Marie in Chicag0 @6:28
thanks, Marie
Avatar 6:29pm
VantuckyEd:

Thank you for this show. As an illustrator I can't express enough how bad Gen AI is for so many artists.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:30pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ VantuckyEd @6:29
Thanks. We need (human) illustrators!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:31pm
tom tom the pipers son:

↳ Will thee SG OCNY @6:27
i guess that was partially the (ab)use in the accumulation of mug shots also
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:32pm
tim:

Alright! My local library has AI Snake Oil.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:32pm
Will thee SG OCNY:

↳ tom tom the pipers son @6:31
truth
Avatar 🤖 6:33pm
MarciB:

Interesting article in the Atlantic today -
"The GPT Era is Already Ending" . I haven't read it yet but am hopeful...
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:33pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ tim @6:32
Thank you for supporting your local library.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:34pm
Folsom:

↳ tim @6:32
I just checked my library, 8 holds on one copy, may have to wait a while
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:35pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

This link will tell you which libraries in and near Jersey City have "AI Snake Oil." If you live elsewhere, you can change the location on the page. search.worldcat.org...
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:36pm
Webhamster Henry:

↳ MarciB @6:33
It's ending because a new Machine learning algorithm is going to take over!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:36pm
tim:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:33
My pleasure! 99% of my book reading is from the library. Physical books.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:36pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ tim @6:36
<3
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
tim:

↳ Folsom @6:34
2 holds at my library!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
tom tom the pipers son:

so AI is like an voracious nitwit
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ Folsom @6:34
Did you put a hold on it? With that much interest, your library's non-fiction collection development person may choose to order a second copy.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
Webhamster Henry:

A teacher friend of mine has the students use AI , it will be in their future, but document how it's used.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:38pm
tim:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:36
Full disclosure: when I'm not being super cool guy on the WFMU chats, I'm a library specialist at an academic library.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:39pm
Will thee SG OCNY:

wanted ai to sense how dirty clothes or dishes are, not to be art or thought
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:39pm
Folsom:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:37
I put a hold on it, found out it's a digital copy, that works for me.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:40pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ tim @6:38
GTFO! I had no idea. Yay!
Full disclosure: when I'm not being a super cool person on the WFMU chats, or hosting my own radio show, I'm a librarian at a public library here in Vermont.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:40pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ Folsom @6:39
yay!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:40pm
tim:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:40
Nice!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm
egould:

↳ MarciB @6:33
"The GPT Era is Already Ending" Yeah, I was watching Bloomberg in the morning in a hotel back in May. Every single story/discussion/talking head had to mention AI. It was at that point I realized there was a lot of hype, and the charlatans were pumping the idiots for money. And that it had already busted. The charlatans knew, the idiots *still* haven't figured it out. It's busted.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:41pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ egould @6:40
hello, egould!
Avatar 6:42pm
joe_rosevear:

↳ egould @6:40
Well, what era is next?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:43pm
egould:

↳ joe_rosevear @6:42
Hi Wendy!
Avatar 6:43pm
VantuckyEd:

My wife works for a major banking company and you should hear how her nitwit managers blab on about using AI.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:44pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Sinister use of AI: medical insurance companies using it to find ways to deny patients of coverage.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm
egould:

↳ joe_rosevear @6:42
I don't pretend to know, and don't speculate. I just know when something is overhyped. It's usually when the TV talking people can't stop talking about it.
Avatar 6:44pm
joe_rosevear:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:41
I think I got your "Hi, Wendy!" from egould.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm
egould:

↳ joe_rosevear @6:44
Hi Joe! :-)
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:45pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ joe_rosevear @6:44
I saw that and intercepted it. Thanks.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm
tom tom the pipers son:

the chimera of a.i. is a promise total safety, total convenience, de facto totality like an 'iron dome' which didn't exactly work out
Avatar 6:45pm
VantuckyEd:

↳ Ken From Hyde Park @6:44
Oh yeh, Mark should do a show about Evicore.or EVILcore as doctors call them.
Avatar 6:45pm
joe_rosevear:

↳ egould @6:45
Yes, "Hi!"
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:46pm
tim:

This is a very validating conversation.
  6:47pm
Deb from California:

↳ VantuckyEd @6:43
Hmmmm ... The use of a computer - - does not make the user "not a nitwit".
Avatar 🤖 6:47pm
MarciB:

I have a young colleague who keeps raving about the self-driving cars in SF. It's boring!
Avatar 6:47pm
VantuckyEd:

↳ Deb from California @6:47
OK I'll opt for twits :)
Avatar 6:48pm
joe_rosevear:

↳ VantuckyEd @6:47
How about, "Button Pushers?"
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
egould:

↳ VantuckyEd @6:47
You got your nits, your twits, and your nitwits.
  Swag For Life Member 6:50pm
biomurph:

It's really cart-before-the-horse-putting. Their medical diagnostic 'AI' should have to go through the most rigorous medical education like a dozen times at different schools, and then they have to set up a practice or work in a hospital, and then we'll see
Avatar 6:51pm
VantuckyEd:

↳ egould @6:49
Ha!
Avatar 6:51pm
joe_rosevear:

You don't need to be a weatherman, to know which way the wind is blowing.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
tim:

Wow! Thanks Arvind and Mark! Great, great, great conversation!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
Will thee SG OCNY:

interesting chat, thank you Mark and Arvind!
  6:53pm
Luigi Mangione:

My favorite show !!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
Bas NL:

Thanks Mark! Thanks Arvind!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
dale:

top google result - 'princeton a.i. reserachers are some of the best in the world.'
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
Webhamster Henry:

I also use Bookshop.org exclusively if I can't get it direct from the author!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
chresti:

Thanks Mark and Arvind!
Avatar 6:53pm
VantuckyEd:

added to my bookshop.org wishlist. Nice!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
dale:

....surprised they published his book.
Avatar 6:55pm
joe_rosevear:

Yes, thank you Mark and Arvind!
  6:56pm
wimpy:

Idk if anyones been keeping up with the news about the shooter today, but the guy they arrested had a gnarly back surgery so the ai could be very relevant to that
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
tim:

But United's algorithm is right 10% of the time!
Avatar 6:56pm
VantuckyEd:

United has moved on to using Evicore - according to Propublicas report.
Avatar 6:57pm
VantuckyEd:

Evicore is even more nefarious
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
egould:

Thanks Mark and Arvind. Interesting discussion.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
gauche knee:

Fantastic show, thank you Arvind & Mark! Will be using the public library & bookshop for AI snake oil just like I did for Delay Deny Defend.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

Thank you, Mark and Arvind!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
bleubombersune:

Mark great interview . UHC rejection rate worse of all major Health Insurance Companies (32%) all stay safe and be well
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
tim:

Thanks, Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
dale:

lack of outrage or empathy for this ceo says so much.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Folsom:

I like the line about life and death shouldn't be in the hands of people, it's the job of the AI programmed by the health industry.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Will thee SG OCNY:

EPROM
Eraseable Programable Read Only Memory
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Thanks, Mark & Arvind. Surrogate President Musk will surely be pushing for AI to take over government functions real soon.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
mistercaz:

thanks very much. Will take a look at the book,& newsletter. Yes, let's avoid amazonian monopoly whenever possible.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
Bas NL:

We have the ongoing debacle of Dutch citizens being falsely accused of fraud with children tax benefits based on findings by wrong algorithms. Tens of thousands have be left in destitution and the matters has been in the open for years without a proper resolution.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
Mark Hurst:

Thanks, everyone, good comments! Have a good week.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Bas NL @6:59
Yikes! Sounds like the British post office scandal!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:16pm
coelacanth∅:

Thanks Mark
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