WFMU: Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from April 11, 2022

Listener comments!
	5:59pm listener james from westwood: Evening, Mark and all!
	🤖 5:59pm Handy Haversack: Mark and all the Techyon drives! Getting a sauce up to simmer, but ears be on. Or "Mode Activate Standby disengaged"!
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Poets that don't Techtonoet!
	6:01pm melinda: hi techtons
	🤖 6:01pm PaulRobeson1920: Good evening 1 & all Howd’y
	🤖 6:01pm tim from washington: Hey Mark! Hey everybody!
	6:02pm ultradamno: BIG segment on trackers on John Oliver's show last night, he threatened Congress with info he legally obtained...
	🤖 6:02pm DjLorraine: I would like to attend
	🤖 6:02pm Webhamster Henry: Hi Mark & Friends!
	🤖 6:02pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! Technelegists!
	🤖 6:03pm chresti: Hi Marktonic!
	🤖 6:03pm Webhamster Henry: I was going to mention that John Oliver thing. It's Oliver-y - and actually lots worse than he reports - but a little consciousness raising is good!
	🤖 6:04pm Ken From Hyde Park: Hello, Mark and techtroglodytes!
	🤖 6:04pm PaulRobeson1920: Yess!!! CYBERSPACE is where we r if you are reading this Cyberspace-the place Our consciousness goes when we use the internet
	6:07pm David in London: Evening Mark and all Technoids.
	6:08pm brycepunk1: Cooking supper and listening to Tectonic. I am happy :)
	🤖 6:09pm PaulRobeson1920: “Cyberspace” The place we (our consciousness) resides when we use the internet- Neil Postman In so many words
	🤖 6:10pm herb.nyc: Mark Hurst, USandA poet laureate, 2023 I like Ali G’s word TECHMOLOGY Aside- from a recent nytimes Brian X Chen’s TECH FIX, excerpt- To report a scammy text, AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile offer the same number to forward the messages to: 7726. After forwarding, the carrier asks for the phone number that the message came from.
	6:10pm Mark Hurst: Hi all, thanks for joining in!
	6:10pm Mark Hurst: @Handy, thanks so much for the books! Just picked them up from the cubby.
	🤖 6:12pm Webhamster Henry: I like drawing working QR codes.
	🤖 6:12pm Bas NL: Anary.. Binalog.
	6:17pm gauche knee: Death is optional…go on…
	6:17pm melinda: I feel like this just took a weird turn with those two sentences
	🤖 6:17pm tim from washington: Techtonic and Music for Mind Control overlap again.
	6:17pm coelacanth∅: which 2, the one's that are not bullshit?
	6:18pm melinda: @tim haha
	6:18pm dale: where's micah when you need him?
	6:19pm gauche knee: @tim & Micah…ha, very
	6:19pm melinda: @coel actually the turn happened immediately at "death is optional"
	6:19pm Jim the Poet: I die all the time
	6:19pm gauche knee: *Melinda , interesting interrogations
	🤖 6:20pm karlward: Jim the Poet wins this round of comments
	🤖 6:21pm Handy Haversack: Mark Hurst: oh, good! Glad you found them!
	6:21pm Mark Hurst: @Jim thanks for joining us! Two poets with us tonight.
	6:21pm Tofu Kills People: Is this The Onion?
	6:21pm coelacanth∅: "post-human"... that has nothing to do with any human that has or will ever be alive.
	🤖 6:22pm Handy Haversack: I think formally I still count as a poet. I get invited to the union meetings. And I damn sure paid my dues.
	🤖 6:23pm Bas NL: Zero, zero, zero. You don't love me anymore now.
	6:23pm Jim the Poet: Well, she seems like a way better poet than me
	🤖 6:23pm Webhamster Henry: I do a lot of NLP poetic stuff too.
	6:24pm coelacanth∅: melinda, one could speculate that one's energy (which is usually called something else ie spirit) continues on after the body dies. i don't think this is completely unrealistic; but yeah, some sort of death is still inevitable. not an option.
	6:24pm Danny in Poughkeepsie: Hello Mark. Thank you again for you bring to WFMU
	6:25pm coelacanth∅: Bas haha
	🤖 6:25pm tim from washington: I like hearing about Sasha's process.
	6:25pm Mark Hurst: @Danny thanks
	🤖 6:25pm karlward: If this natural language processing poetry is interesting to you, check out the work of Allison Parrish: www.decontextualize.com
	6:25pm _Ike_: Twas brillig, and the slithy Zuckerbergs Did gyre and gimble in the wabe All Mimsy were the shady data brokers And the mome raths were outraged
	6:26pm Ed: Fascinating project, great conversation - learning a lot!
	6:26pm Fredericks: Don't I remember a guest the set up a generator that wrote in the style of various artists?
	6:26pm Mark Hurst: @_Ike_ good one
	🤖 6:26pm Webhamster Henry: There are a BUNCH of poets doing generated poetry and it has a history. muse.jhu.edu...
	6:27pm frito_: mind = blown
	6:27pm coelacanth∅: Sasha will be spared after the takeover
	🤖 6:27pm karlward: Also, my former classmate Ross Goodwin does a bunch of interesting stuff in this realm: rossgoodwin.com
	🤖 6:27pm tim from washington: @Webhamster - What is NLP?
	🤖 6:27pm karlward: NLP natural language processing
	6:28pm Mark Hurst: @karlward thanks - hadn't heard of Ross - will take a look (after the show)
	🤖 6:28pm karlward: NLP: using computers to parse written/spoken language into data structures / programs
	🤖 6:29pm PaulRobeson1920: NLP Nero Linguistic Programing
	6:29pm Mark Hurst: @Webham thanks for the pointer & good point
	6:29pm dale: that was borderline porn.
	6:29pm coelacanth∅: "generated poetry" has the potential to be very interesting... like algorithmic music.
	6:30pm Sam: Sorry but I have to object on principle to using AI when you can’t think of what to write.
	🤖 6:30pm karlward: PaulRobeson1920: nope, this is the NLP we're talking about: en.wikipedia.org...
	6:30pm ultradamno: I had a lot of luck with dahlia's myself, insofar as none of them have ever attacked me.
	6:31pm ultradamno: There's a six hour video of AI generated jazz on you tube. It's beat.
	6:31pm Dean: James Merrill's The Changing Light at Sandover is a monumental poem on the order of 500 pages written with the assistance of a Ouija board.
	6:32pm Mark Hurst: @Dean the Sandover poem came up in last week's interview
	🤖 6:32pm Webhamster Henry: @karlwad jumped in! But I also work with audio as well as words. Meanwhile check out this old Techtonic show with ME becasue I always post about ME: www.wfmu.org... and the show with Jamie Brew from Botnik: wfmu.org...
	🤖 6:32pm tim from washington: @Sam - I find it very interesting. I relate it to John Cage setting up parameters for chance creations or Burrough's cut-ups.
	6:32pm Dean: I missed that!
	🤖 6:32pm Bas NL: "Don't turn off your computer. Poetry forthcoming."
	🤖 6:33pm PaulRobeson1920: He he he he I wonder if Sasha has ever GListened to Night Owl?
	🤖 6:33pm Webhamster Henry: I did a show in 1993 which did a real time continuous video treatment of a poem by David Cale, read in real time by the Amiga's internal voice.
	6:34pm coelacanth∅: it's a good thing we can create computers to write poetry, so we no longer have to have thinking creative people. ...'been phasing them out anyway.
	6:34pm Sam: I think it’s very dangerous to hand over this part of our lives to machines. Just because they come up with original eloquent stuff doesn’t mean we should cede our own creativity to them. Pretty soon nobody will be able to write creatively without their help. That’s terrifying.
	🤖 6:34pm karlward: Mark Hurst: I have to say that I love how you engage with viewpoints you disagree with. I learned a long time ago (while studying English literature) that some ideas can be fertile for inquiry/discussion/understanding even when they are ideas you disagree with. You're doing a great thing here.
	6:35pm melinda: @Sam I know what you mean
	6:35pm ultradamno: They used to do a thing on Vice Daily on HBO where a critic would evaluate AI generated art. I always thought it was flawed because the critic clearly knew and brought his bias to bear.
	6:36pm Mark Hurst: @karlward that's nice of you to say, thanks.. and yes, I think it's important to spotlight a variety of perspectives!
	🤖 6:36pm Handy Haversack: But the only creativity in the machine-generated text is what the human reader brings with them -- the machines aren't stealing jobs. Anything that stimulates the human brain toward active and engaged interaction with creative and noninstrumental language is a good.
	6:36pm ultradamno: I'm not necessarily saying the critic would have been different had he not known but the exercise would have been more interesting in a blind test.
	🤖 6:36pm Webhamster Henry: There are lots of rule based poetry things that way predate machines doing it. Or actually, DO have machines doing it like this latin verse machine from 1845: alfredgilletttrust.org...
	🤖 6:38pm Handy Haversack: Try using your poetry reel to get a tryout on a philosophers soccer team. Just try. There are no jobs out there.
	🤖 6:38pm PaulRobeson1920: “Reach out your hand, if your cup be empty If your cup is full, may it be again… Let it be known there is a fountain That was not made by the hands of men” - Robert Hunter
	6:38pm chris in the redwoods: it would be fun to create a random parameter in the NLP rules engine to slightly or radically change the accuracy of the processing. that might lead to fun/interesting things happening. that said, i know very very little about how possible that would be to do. also, hello, Mark and everyone. i'm enjoying the conversation.
	6:38pm Mark Hurst: @chris hi, and yes good idea
	🤖 6:38pm Ken From Hyde Park: Poetry you can trust®!
	🤖 6:39pm Webhamster Henry: @Chris it's a parameter called "the temperature" in the transformer based AIs.
	6:39pm Dean: Kenneth Koch's When the Sun Tries to Go On is a book-length poem, utterly hilarious, that occasionally sounds like the inverse of what Stiles describes. She finds remarkable the capacity for a machine to generate indicia of intention. Koch's book is remarkable for producing sequences of words on the page that seem divorced from intention. Re: NLP and humanities, this is a fun start of a discussion: https://critinq.wordpress.com/2019/03/31/computational-literary-studies-a-critical-inquiry-online-forum/
	6:39pm chris in the redwoods: ooh, thanks, Henry!
	🤖 6:40pm tim from washington: @Sam - I definitely agree with you there. I do like how Sasha utilized the technology with intention as an experiment.
	🤖 6:40pm Bas NL: All AI's are currently busy.. we will connect you to a live poet.
	6:40pm Mark Hurst: @Bas heh
	6:41pm chris in the redwoods: that made me lol, Bas. :)
	🤖 6:41pm Ken From Hyde Park: The secret to rhyming is all in the timing.
	6:41pm G: paranoid android?
	6:42pm coelacanth∅: are you calling a robot a "her"?
	6:42pm melinda: I heard about Bina48 I think from one of those NPR-based sciencey podcasts
	🤖 6:42pm Webhamster Henry: This used to be free 8^( philosopherai.com
	6:42pm Mark Hurst: @Ken good one. to quote a wise commenter above, we are poets that don't Techtonoet! (thanks, ultradamno)
	6:42pm coelacanth∅: this world is irreparably ill.
	🤖 6:42pm chresti: Nite Owl can be so profound and nonsensical
	🤖 6:42pm PaulRobeson1920: “There is no place in American society for a poet” 1971
	6:42pm G: @coel: The AI self-identifies as a F :-)
	6:43pm Daybreak is Thinking Thoughts 💭: Ironically, I really need to grade 14 short stories, three short fiction collections, and six nonlinear short stories from my creative writing class this evening and tonight. Many of them chose to also include artwork or a curated playlist to be enjoyed in conjunction with their work. It’s pretty awesome that creativity is breaking out everywhere! I will definitely catch the show in the archives. I will actually post it for my creative writing class on Wednesday as they are in the beginning of their poetry. Currently they’re reading for 40 min and writing for 40 min with lunch in the middle. They get to pick what they do and when.
	🤖 6:43pm Webhamster Henry: I've wanted to get more poetry into the Night Owl, but Dave Amels is kind of done tinkering with it.
	6:43pm coelacanth∅: G haha... i guess that's where we're at.
	6:44pm castor: It doesn’t feel like anything because AI cannot feel.
	6:45pm Fredericks: Post-Human descendants? Mind Files? I'm getting the creeps.
	6:45pm Daybreak is Thinking Thoughts 💭: Don’t you have access to some magical programming portal into the program, secret or public, Webhampster Henry?
	6:45pm Dayffid: Hi all
	6:46pm castor: I’m of the heideggerian embodied consciousness camp, AI has to grow up in an embodied world to get anywhere close to consciousness.
	🤖 6:46pm PaulRobeson1920: @coelacantho! That my friend is an untruth We may live in a sick society, but the world is OK baby.
	6:46pm coelacanth∅: my sister refers to the gps voice as "she" also...correcting my sister is futile. it's hopeless.
	6:47pm ultradamno: Well, Kraftwerk got inducted into the Rock Hall, you can't take that from the robots!
	6:47pm Dayffid: I’m with you Sam, something about that interview did not sit well with me
	6:48pm Dayffid: I say we stick with TechMology instead. Booyakasha!
	6:50pm ParUbi: I love that about this show! Multi-perspectival!
	🤖 6:50pm Handy Haversack: Very interesting talk, Mark. Thanks to you and Sasha. I have been pulled away from keyboard a lot and most of my thoughts on this are too long and rambling for comments board anyway. But at least to say that K8, who's a working teaching artist, has been thinking of ways to teach AI-inflected art (e.g., recent program at the Park Avenue Armory) to NYC HS kids. It's a pretty interesting vein. And she's been wrestling with writing about that patient-calming seal, too.
	🤖 6:50pm chresti: You can choose the gender with GPS, also language.
	6:50pm coelacanth∅: ParUbi, not really. Sam was speaking truth, but only certain perspectives are acceptable i guess. welcome to 1984.
	🤖 6:51pm PaulRobeson1920: The underpinnings of the universe are good and wholesome and guided by an innate wisdom and music and LOVE
	🤖 6:51pm Webhamster Henry: I was doing an AI story podcast for a little while to test out podcasting software: www.mixcloud.com...
	6:51pm castor: Make death optional again, just like the ancient Egyptians were able to do!
	🤖 6:52pm Ken From Hyde Park: There actually are three kinds of people in the world: Those who understand math and those who don't.
	6:52pm ultradamno: By the way, I guess Musk is out on his Twitter takeover. So, the coveted checkmarks are no longer for sale.
	6:52pm mespr: Technology is our child. Like it or not. Thank you Sasha. Your work is fantastic.
	🤖 6:52pm chresti: I bet he was in a hot tub!
	🤖 6:52pm Bas NL: Can't do... My mobile only runs at 10 MLoPs. (Mega Lines of Poetry per second)
	🤖 6:52pm PaulRobeson1920: Scan your buttocks! LOL
	🤖 6:53pm tim from washington: "Death is not optional" sounds like some hackneyed Type A personality catch phrase.
	6:53pm melinda: @tim it does!
	🤖 6:53pm chresti: Isn't that like scientology's thing?
	6:53pm Rich in Washington: That's literally the plotline of the TV show Upload and it's hilarious.
	🤖 6:53pm PaulRobeson1920: Oh jezus!!! Fun?!
	6:53pm castor: Who will rule this posthumous cloud kingdom?
	🤖 6:53pm tim from washington: Who's got a hot tub?
	6:54pm Dean: Eternal life would give me the bandwidth to memorize Finnegans Wake.
	6:54pm Dayffid: I have a confession. I’m actually a robot
	🤖 6:54pm Webhamster Henry: Digital replication is a trope . www.google.com...
	6:54pm P-90: You’re talking about “vastening”?
	6:54pm Sam: Even if they could do that it wouldn’t be you. Any more than your genetically identical twin is you.
	6:54pm Rich in Washington: @Dayffid: are you the only robot in the village?
	🤖 6:55pm tim from washington: It's ok, Dayffid. We were well aware of it. We still love you as you are.
	🤖 6:55pm chresti: Algorithms Revolt!
	6:55pm ultradamno: Here's the thing, while actually dying, the idea that a program doing an impersonation of me will still exist would be no comfort. The narcissism that would take.
	🤖 6:55pm Webhamster Henry: AI Gods will demand sacrifices, because that's what gods want.
	6:56pm castor: This is also similar to that Choice OS cult on Music of Mind Control. God is just something you need to download and install in your soul.
	6:56pm coelacanth∅: and colonizing mars and self-driving vehicles makes sense... about as much as computer-generated "art". total insanity.
	🤖 6:56pm PaulRobeson1920: Postman wrote about this… a technological divinity requires the trivialization/demotion of all others…
	🤖 6:57pm Handy Haversack: Thanks again, Mark!
	6:57pm P-90: The idea has never been that “death is optional”, the idea has always been that uploading your consciousness to a digital host will allow your consciousness to continue after the life of your physical body.
	🤖 6:57pm Bas NL: Thanks Mark and Sascha!
	6:57pm Dayffid: Science has always been just another religion.
	🤖 6:57pm tim from washington: Good show, Mark! Good discussions.
	6:57pm castor: It’s my belief that this is the future medieval theocracy we are headed for.
	🤖 6:57pm PaulRobeson1920: In Technopoly 1992- The surrender of culture to tech
	6:57pm melinda: @PaulRobeson Postman had great insights, prescient
	6:57pm ultradamno: Work Pray Code? Is there a How Her Got Her Groove Back?
	6:57pm Rich in Washington: Thanks, Mark!
	🤖 6:58pm PaulRobeson1920: Yes! @melinda
	🤖 6:58pm Handy Haversack: (K8's working like mad but keeps muttering, "That's something I want to write a play about ... that's something I want to write a play about ..." &c. &c.)
	6:58pm castor: Thank you Mark!!!
	6:58pm Sam: Silicon Valley is the latest regurgitation of the arrogance of mortals who think they can defeat death. God will punish them with plagues of sea level rise, earthquakes and wildfires.
	6:58pm Rolando: What ! I missed the show. Ahh. Sorry I overslept. 😀
	6:58pm gauche knee: Love the talk with Sasha! been peering into the useful applications of AI in patient care & ethical implications. This gave much to ponder! 🙏🏾
	🤖 6:58pm Analog Nights: Thanks Mark
	🤖 6:58pm Bas NL: If (god==DJ) then
	6:58pm P-90: Thanks! @Sasha Stiles and Mark Hurst
	6:58pm Dayffid: Castor is right. I have seen it
	6:58pm melinda: thnks Mark!
	🤖 6:58pm Webhamster Henry: The Replika App tries to be your friend, but I found that it was really boring.
	🤖 6:59pm PaulRobeson1920: Thank you, Mark & Sasha! Peace & LoVe ya’ll & thank you WFMU
	6:59pm (Murakami Whywolf))): Well, there's a final limitation of the heat death of the universe, and of proton decay, but all one needs to believe in order to believe in uploading is to be a pure materialist, which I think is correct and I'm sorry not everyone believes-in. Here, 'materialist' doesn't mean 'wanting stuff', it means believing in a completely naturalistic explanation for the universe, nothing but space and mass-energy and the forces governing them.
	🤖 6:59pm Handy Haversack: No, Sam, that's OUR punishment for not stopping this for the sake of our convenience.
	6:59pm chris in the redwoods: thanks, Mark!
	6:59pm listener 126464: Thank you Mark.
	🤖 6:59pm chresti: Thanks Markl LMAO!
	🤖 6:59pm Ken From Hyde Park: Jim the AI poetry programmer. Thanks, Mark & Sasha.
	6:59pm Dayffid: Handy - that’s very accurate
	7:00pm Dano59: the Holy Father meets Microserfs?
	🤖 7:00pm Webhamster Henry: Thanks Mark & Sasha -- this is clearly my kinds of exploration.
	🤖 7:00pm chresti: Ha Dano!
	7:00pm coelacanth∅: yeah "ai" is good for patient care. ...well, cost-effective. i guess that's the bottom line.
	7:00pm castor: Buonasera Arb’n All
	7:01pm Franco Twinkie: MARK IS RIGHT! We tried to use a Google app earlier and I felt like my brain was leaking out of my ears.
	7:02pm coelacanth∅: Sam i just went from being in total agreement with you to not...unless "god" and "punish" are metaphors.
	7:04pm (((Murakami Whywolf): May all your deaths be little ones.

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from April 11, 2022

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

Also available as an MP3 podcast. More info at our Podcast Central page.

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Mon. Dec 23rd, 6pm - 7pm: Don Fleming guest hosts Techtonic

April 11, 2022: Sasha Stiles, poet and artist, on her book "Technelegy"

Listen to this show: Pop-up listen Pop-up player!

Sasha Stiles' <a href="https://www.sashastiles.com/cursive-binary" target="_blank">Cursive Binary</a> of the text "Technelegy"

Sasha Stiles' Cursive Binary of the text "Technelegy"

Today: Sasha Stiles, poet and artist, on her book "Technelegy"

Links:

• Technelegy, by Sasha Stiles, published by Black Spring Press Group

• sashastiles.com and technelegy.xyz

• On Twitter: @sashastiles and @technelegy

• The Franciscan monk helping the Vatican take on — and tame — AI (FT, April 6, 2022): "The Pope’s guest was Brad Smith, president of the US technology giant Microsoft... On the agenda was the topic of AI and, specifically, how humanity as a whole could benefit from this powerful technology, rather than being at its mercy... The Pope was concerned about how AI might be used to wage war in Ukraine, [and] what he could do to prevent the technology from ultimately destroying the fabric of humanity."

Happy Easter, for those who celebrate it.

PAST EPISODES: techtonic.fm lists recent Techtonic shows.

PODCAST: Subscribe to the Techtonic podcast

Artist	Track	Approx. start time
Sasha Stiles, poet and artist, on her book "Technelegy"
Tomaš Dvořák	Game Boy Tune "Game Boy Tune" by "Tomaš Dvořák"
	Mark's intro "Mark's intro"
	Interview with Sasha Stiles "Interview with Sasha Stiles"	0:05:19 (Pop-up)
	Mark's comments "Mark's comments"	0:43:16 (Pop-up)
Anders Enger Jensen	Steal This Riff	0:56:13 (Pop-up)

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Listener comments!
	5:59pm listener james from westwood: Evening, Mark and all!
	🤖 5:59pm Handy Haversack: Mark and all the Techyon drives! Getting a sauce up to simmer, but ears be on. Or "Mode Activate Standby disengaged"!
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Poets that don't Techtonoet!
	6:01pm melinda: hi techtons
	🤖 6:01pm PaulRobeson1920: Good evening 1 & all Howd’y
	🤖 6:01pm tim from washington: Hey Mark! Hey everybody!
	6:02pm ultradamno: BIG segment on trackers on John Oliver's show last night, he threatened Congress with info he legally obtained...
	🤖 6:02pm DjLorraine: I would like to attend
	🤖 6:02pm Webhamster Henry: Hi Mark & Friends!
	🤖 6:02pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! Technelegists!
	🤖 6:03pm chresti: Hi Marktonic!
	🤖 6:03pm Webhamster Henry: I was going to mention that John Oliver thing. It's Oliver-y - and actually lots worse than he reports - but a little consciousness raising is good!
	🤖 6:04pm Ken From Hyde Park: Hello, Mark and techtroglodytes!
	🤖 6:04pm PaulRobeson1920: Yess!!! CYBERSPACE is where we r if you are reading this Cyberspace-the place Our consciousness goes when we use the internet
	6:07pm David in London: Evening Mark and all Technoids.
	6:08pm brycepunk1: Cooking supper and listening to Tectonic. I am happy :)
	🤖 6:09pm PaulRobeson1920: “Cyberspace” The place we (our consciousness) resides when we use the internet- Neil Postman In so many words
	🤖 6:10pm herb.nyc: Mark Hurst, USandA poet laureate, 2023 I like Ali G’s word TECHMOLOGY Aside- from a recent nytimes Brian X Chen’s TECH FIX, excerpt- To report a scammy text, AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile offer the same number to forward the messages to: 7726. After forwarding, the carrier asks for the phone number that the message came from.
	6:10pm Mark Hurst: Hi all, thanks for joining in!
	6:10pm Mark Hurst: @Handy, thanks so much for the books! Just picked them up from the cubby.
	🤖 6:12pm Webhamster Henry: I like drawing working QR codes.
	🤖 6:12pm Bas NL: Anary.. Binalog.
	6:17pm gauche knee: Death is optional…go on…
	6:17pm melinda: I feel like this just took a weird turn with those two sentences
	🤖 6:17pm tim from washington: Techtonic and Music for Mind Control overlap again.
	6:17pm coelacanth∅: which 2, the one's that are not bullshit?
	6:18pm melinda: @tim haha
	6:18pm dale: where's micah when you need him?
	6:19pm gauche knee: @tim & Micah…ha, very
	6:19pm melinda: @coel actually the turn happened immediately at "death is optional"
	6:19pm Jim the Poet: I die all the time
	6:19pm gauche knee: *Melinda , interesting interrogations
	🤖 6:20pm karlward: Jim the Poet wins this round of comments
	🤖 6:21pm Handy Haversack: Mark Hurst: oh, good! Glad you found them!
	6:21pm Mark Hurst: @Jim thanks for joining us! Two poets with us tonight.
	6:21pm Tofu Kills People: Is this The Onion?
	6:21pm coelacanth∅: "post-human"... that has nothing to do with any human that has or will ever be alive.
	🤖 6:22pm Handy Haversack: I think formally I still count as a poet. I get invited to the union meetings. And I damn sure paid my dues.
	🤖 6:23pm Bas NL: Zero, zero, zero. You don't love me anymore now.
	6:23pm Jim the Poet: Well, she seems like a way better poet than me
	🤖 6:23pm Webhamster Henry: I do a lot of NLP poetic stuff too.
	6:24pm coelacanth∅: melinda, one could speculate that one's energy (which is usually called something else ie spirit) continues on after the body dies. i don't think this is completely unrealistic; but yeah, some sort of death is still inevitable. not an option.
	6:24pm Danny in Poughkeepsie: Hello Mark. Thank you again for you bring to WFMU
	6:25pm coelacanth∅: Bas haha
	🤖 6:25pm tim from washington: I like hearing about Sasha's process.
	6:25pm Mark Hurst: @Danny thanks
	🤖 6:25pm karlward: If this natural language processing poetry is interesting to you, check out the work of Allison Parrish: www.decontextualize.com
	6:25pm _Ike_: Twas brillig, and the slithy Zuckerbergs Did gyre and gimble in the wabe All Mimsy were the shady data brokers And the mome raths were outraged
	6:26pm Ed: Fascinating project, great conversation - learning a lot!
	6:26pm Fredericks: Don't I remember a guest the set up a generator that wrote in the style of various artists?
	6:26pm Mark Hurst: @_Ike_ good one
	🤖 6:26pm Webhamster Henry: There are a BUNCH of poets doing generated poetry and it has a history. muse.jhu.edu...
	6:27pm frito_: mind = blown
	6:27pm coelacanth∅: Sasha will be spared after the takeover
	🤖 6:27pm karlward: Also, my former classmate Ross Goodwin does a bunch of interesting stuff in this realm: rossgoodwin.com
	🤖 6:27pm tim from washington: @Webhamster - What is NLP?
	🤖 6:27pm karlward: NLP natural language processing
	6:28pm Mark Hurst: @karlward thanks - hadn't heard of Ross - will take a look (after the show)
	🤖 6:28pm karlward: NLP: using computers to parse written/spoken language into data structures / programs
	🤖 6:29pm PaulRobeson1920: NLP Nero Linguistic Programing
	6:29pm Mark Hurst: @Webham thanks for the pointer & good point
	6:29pm dale: that was borderline porn.
	6:29pm coelacanth∅: "generated poetry" has the potential to be very interesting... like algorithmic music.
	6:30pm Sam: Sorry but I have to object on principle to using AI when you can’t think of what to write.
	🤖 6:30pm karlward: PaulRobeson1920: nope, this is the NLP we're talking about: en.wikipedia.org...
	6:30pm ultradamno: I had a lot of luck with dahlia's myself, insofar as none of them have ever attacked me.
	6:31pm ultradamno: There's a six hour video of AI generated jazz on you tube. It's beat.
	6:31pm Dean: James Merrill's The Changing Light at Sandover is a monumental poem on the order of 500 pages written with the assistance of a Ouija board.
	6:32pm Mark Hurst: @Dean the Sandover poem came up in last week's interview
	🤖 6:32pm Webhamster Henry: @karlwad jumped in! But I also work with audio as well as words. Meanwhile check out this old Techtonic show with ME becasue I always post about ME: www.wfmu.org... and the show with Jamie Brew from Botnik: wfmu.org...
	🤖 6:32pm tim from washington: @Sam - I find it very interesting. I relate it to John Cage setting up parameters for chance creations or Burrough's cut-ups.
	6:32pm Dean: I missed that!
	🤖 6:32pm Bas NL: "Don't turn off your computer. Poetry forthcoming."
	🤖 6:33pm PaulRobeson1920: He he he he I wonder if Sasha has ever GListened to Night Owl?
	🤖 6:33pm Webhamster Henry: I did a show in 1993 which did a real time continuous video treatment of a poem by David Cale, read in real time by the Amiga's internal voice.
	6:34pm coelacanth∅: it's a good thing we can create computers to write poetry, so we no longer have to have thinking creative people. ...'been phasing them out anyway.
	6:34pm Sam: I think it’s very dangerous to hand over this part of our lives to machines. Just because they come up with original eloquent stuff doesn’t mean we should cede our own creativity to them. Pretty soon nobody will be able to write creatively without their help. That’s terrifying.
	🤖 6:34pm karlward: Mark Hurst: I have to say that I love how you engage with viewpoints you disagree with. I learned a long time ago (while studying English literature) that some ideas can be fertile for inquiry/discussion/understanding even when they are ideas you disagree with. You're doing a great thing here.
	6:35pm melinda: @Sam I know what you mean
	6:35pm ultradamno: They used to do a thing on Vice Daily on HBO where a critic would evaluate AI generated art. I always thought it was flawed because the critic clearly knew and brought his bias to bear.
	6:36pm Mark Hurst: @karlward that's nice of you to say, thanks.. and yes, I think it's important to spotlight a variety of perspectives!
	🤖 6:36pm Handy Haversack: But the only creativity in the machine-generated text is what the human reader brings with them -- the machines aren't stealing jobs. Anything that stimulates the human brain toward active and engaged interaction with creative and noninstrumental language is a good.
	6:36pm ultradamno: I'm not necessarily saying the critic would have been different had he not known but the exercise would have been more interesting in a blind test.
	🤖 6:36pm Webhamster Henry: There are lots of rule based poetry things that way predate machines doing it. Or actually, DO have machines doing it like this latin verse machine from 1845: alfredgilletttrust.org...
	🤖 6:38pm Handy Haversack: Try using your poetry reel to get a tryout on a philosophers soccer team. Just try. There are no jobs out there.
	🤖 6:38pm PaulRobeson1920: “Reach out your hand, if your cup be empty If your cup is full, may it be again… Let it be known there is a fountain That was not made by the hands of men” - Robert Hunter
	6:38pm chris in the redwoods: it would be fun to create a random parameter in the NLP rules engine to slightly or radically change the accuracy of the processing. that might lead to fun/interesting things happening. that said, i know very very little about how possible that would be to do. also, hello, Mark and everyone. i'm enjoying the conversation.
	6:38pm Mark Hurst: @chris hi, and yes good idea
	🤖 6:38pm Ken From Hyde Park: Poetry you can trust®!
	🤖 6:39pm Webhamster Henry: @Chris it's a parameter called "the temperature" in the transformer based AIs.
	6:39pm Dean: Kenneth Koch's When the Sun Tries to Go On is a book-length poem, utterly hilarious, that occasionally sounds like the inverse of what Stiles describes. She finds remarkable the capacity for a machine to generate indicia of intention. Koch's book is remarkable for producing sequences of words on the page that seem divorced from intention. Re: NLP and humanities, this is a fun start of a discussion: https://critinq.wordpress.com/2019/03/31/computational-literary-studies-a-critical-inquiry-online-forum/
	6:39pm chris in the redwoods: ooh, thanks, Henry!
	🤖 6:40pm tim from washington: @Sam - I definitely agree with you there. I do like how Sasha utilized the technology with intention as an experiment.
	🤖 6:40pm Bas NL: All AI's are currently busy.. we will connect you to a live poet.
	6:40pm Mark Hurst: @Bas heh
	6:41pm chris in the redwoods: that made me lol, Bas. :)
	🤖 6:41pm Ken From Hyde Park: The secret to rhyming is all in the timing.
	6:41pm G: paranoid android?
	6:42pm coelacanth∅: are you calling a robot a "her"?
	6:42pm melinda: I heard about Bina48 I think from one of those NPR-based sciencey podcasts
	🤖 6:42pm Webhamster Henry: This used to be free 8^( philosopherai.com
	6:42pm Mark Hurst: @Ken good one. to quote a wise commenter above, we are poets that don't Techtonoet! (thanks, ultradamno)
	6:42pm coelacanth∅: this world is irreparably ill.
	🤖 6:42pm chresti: Nite Owl can be so profound and nonsensical
	🤖 6:42pm PaulRobeson1920: “There is no place in American society for a poet” 1971
	6:42pm G: @coel: The AI self-identifies as a F :-)
	6:43pm Daybreak is Thinking Thoughts 💭: Ironically, I really need to grade 14 short stories, three short fiction collections, and six nonlinear short stories from my creative writing class this evening and tonight. Many of them chose to also include artwork or a curated playlist to be enjoyed in conjunction with their work. It’s pretty awesome that creativity is breaking out everywhere! I will definitely catch the show in the archives. I will actually post it for my creative writing class on Wednesday as they are in the beginning of their poetry. Currently they’re reading for 40 min and writing for 40 min with lunch in the middle. They get to pick what they do and when.
	🤖 6:43pm Webhamster Henry: I've wanted to get more poetry into the Night Owl, but Dave Amels is kind of done tinkering with it.
	6:43pm coelacanth∅: G haha... i guess that's where we're at.
	6:44pm castor: It doesn’t feel like anything because AI cannot feel.
	6:45pm Fredericks: Post-Human descendants? Mind Files? I'm getting the creeps.
	6:45pm Daybreak is Thinking Thoughts 💭: Don’t you have access to some magical programming portal into the program, secret or public, Webhampster Henry?
	6:45pm Dayffid: Hi all
	6:46pm castor: I’m of the heideggerian embodied consciousness camp, AI has to grow up in an embodied world to get anywhere close to consciousness.
	🤖 6:46pm PaulRobeson1920: @coelacantho! That my friend is an untruth We may live in a sick society, but the world is OK baby.
	6:46pm coelacanth∅: my sister refers to the gps voice as "she" also...correcting my sister is futile. it's hopeless.
	6:47pm ultradamno: Well, Kraftwerk got inducted into the Rock Hall, you can't take that from the robots!
	6:47pm Dayffid: I’m with you Sam, something about that interview did not sit well with me
	6:48pm Dayffid: I say we stick with TechMology instead. Booyakasha!
	6:50pm ParUbi: I love that about this show! Multi-perspectival!
	🤖 6:50pm Handy Haversack: Very interesting talk, Mark. Thanks to you and Sasha. I have been pulled away from keyboard a lot and most of my thoughts on this are too long and rambling for comments board anyway. But at least to say that K8, who's a working teaching artist, has been thinking of ways to teach AI-inflected art (e.g., recent program at the Park Avenue Armory) to NYC HS kids. It's a pretty interesting vein. And she's been wrestling with writing about that patient-calming seal, too.
	🤖 6:50pm chresti: You can choose the gender with GPS, also language.
	6:50pm coelacanth∅: ParUbi, not really. Sam was speaking truth, but only certain perspectives are acceptable i guess. welcome to 1984.
	🤖 6:51pm PaulRobeson1920: The underpinnings of the universe are good and wholesome and guided by an innate wisdom and music and LOVE
	🤖 6:51pm Webhamster Henry: I was doing an AI story podcast for a little while to test out podcasting software: www.mixcloud.com...
	6:51pm castor: Make death optional again, just like the ancient Egyptians were able to do!
	🤖 6:52pm Ken From Hyde Park: There actually are three kinds of people in the world: Those who understand math and those who don't.
	6:52pm ultradamno: By the way, I guess Musk is out on his Twitter takeover. So, the coveted checkmarks are no longer for sale.
	6:52pm mespr: Technology is our child. Like it or not. Thank you Sasha. Your work is fantastic.
	🤖 6:52pm chresti: I bet he was in a hot tub!
	🤖 6:52pm Bas NL: Can't do... My mobile only runs at 10 MLoPs. (Mega Lines of Poetry per second)
	🤖 6:52pm PaulRobeson1920: Scan your buttocks! LOL
	🤖 6:53pm tim from washington: "Death is not optional" sounds like some hackneyed Type A personality catch phrase.
	6:53pm melinda: @tim it does!
	🤖 6:53pm chresti: Isn't that like scientology's thing?
	6:53pm Rich in Washington: That's literally the plotline of the TV show Upload and it's hilarious.
	🤖 6:53pm PaulRobeson1920: Oh jezus!!! Fun?!
	6:53pm castor: Who will rule this posthumous cloud kingdom?
	🤖 6:53pm tim from washington: Who's got a hot tub?
	6:54pm Dean: Eternal life would give me the bandwidth to memorize Finnegans Wake.
	6:54pm Dayffid: I have a confession. I’m actually a robot
	🤖 6:54pm Webhamster Henry: Digital replication is a trope . www.google.com...
	6:54pm P-90: You’re talking about “vastening”?
	6:54pm Sam: Even if they could do that it wouldn’t be you. Any more than your genetically identical twin is you.
	6:54pm Rich in Washington: @Dayffid: are you the only robot in the village?
	🤖 6:55pm tim from washington: It's ok, Dayffid. We were well aware of it. We still love you as you are.
	🤖 6:55pm chresti: Algorithms Revolt!
	6:55pm ultradamno: Here's the thing, while actually dying, the idea that a program doing an impersonation of me will still exist would be no comfort. The narcissism that would take.
	🤖 6:55pm Webhamster Henry: AI Gods will demand sacrifices, because that's what gods want.
	6:56pm castor: This is also similar to that Choice OS cult on Music of Mind Control. God is just something you need to download and install in your soul.
	6:56pm coelacanth∅: and colonizing mars and self-driving vehicles makes sense... about as much as computer-generated "art". total insanity.
	🤖 6:56pm PaulRobeson1920: Postman wrote about this… a technological divinity requires the trivialization/demotion of all others…
	🤖 6:57pm Handy Haversack: Thanks again, Mark!
	6:57pm P-90: The idea has never been that “death is optional”, the idea has always been that uploading your consciousness to a digital host will allow your consciousness to continue after the life of your physical body.
	🤖 6:57pm Bas NL: Thanks Mark and Sascha!
	6:57pm Dayffid: Science has always been just another religion.
	🤖 6:57pm tim from washington: Good show, Mark! Good discussions.
	6:57pm castor: It’s my belief that this is the future medieval theocracy we are headed for.
	🤖 6:57pm PaulRobeson1920: In Technopoly 1992- The surrender of culture to tech
	6:57pm melinda: @PaulRobeson Postman had great insights, prescient
	6:57pm ultradamno: Work Pray Code? Is there a How Her Got Her Groove Back?
	6:57pm Rich in Washington: Thanks, Mark!
	🤖 6:58pm PaulRobeson1920: Yes! @melinda
	🤖 6:58pm Handy Haversack: (K8's working like mad but keeps muttering, "That's something I want to write a play about ... that's something I want to write a play about ..." &c. &c.)
	6:58pm castor: Thank you Mark!!!
	6:58pm Sam: Silicon Valley is the latest regurgitation of the arrogance of mortals who think they can defeat death. God will punish them with plagues of sea level rise, earthquakes and wildfires.
	6:58pm Rolando: What ! I missed the show. Ahh. Sorry I overslept. 😀
	6:58pm gauche knee: Love the talk with Sasha! been peering into the useful applications of AI in patient care & ethical implications. This gave much to ponder! 🙏🏾
	🤖 6:58pm Analog Nights: Thanks Mark
	🤖 6:58pm Bas NL: If (god==DJ) then
	6:58pm P-90: Thanks! @Sasha Stiles and Mark Hurst
	6:58pm Dayffid: Castor is right. I have seen it
	6:58pm melinda: thnks Mark!
	🤖 6:58pm Webhamster Henry: The Replika App tries to be your friend, but I found that it was really boring.
	🤖 6:59pm PaulRobeson1920: Thank you, Mark & Sasha! Peace & LoVe ya’ll & thank you WFMU
	6:59pm (Murakami Whywolf))): Well, there's a final limitation of the heat death of the universe, and of proton decay, but all one needs to believe in order to believe in uploading is to be a pure materialist, which I think is correct and I'm sorry not everyone believes-in. Here, 'materialist' doesn't mean 'wanting stuff', it means believing in a completely naturalistic explanation for the universe, nothing but space and mass-energy and the forces governing them.
	🤖 6:59pm Handy Haversack: No, Sam, that's OUR punishment for not stopping this for the sake of our convenience.
	6:59pm chris in the redwoods: thanks, Mark!
	6:59pm listener 126464: Thank you Mark.
	🤖 6:59pm chresti: Thanks Markl LMAO!
	🤖 6:59pm Ken From Hyde Park: Jim the AI poetry programmer. Thanks, Mark & Sasha.
	6:59pm Dayffid: Handy - that’s very accurate
	7:00pm Dano59: the Holy Father meets Microserfs?
	🤖 7:00pm Webhamster Henry: Thanks Mark & Sasha -- this is clearly my kinds of exploration.
	🤖 7:00pm chresti: Ha Dano!
	7:00pm coelacanth∅: yeah "ai" is good for patient care. ...well, cost-effective. i guess that's the bottom line.
	7:00pm castor: Buonasera Arb’n All
	7:01pm Franco Twinkie: MARK IS RIGHT! We tried to use a Google app earlier and I felt like my brain was leaking out of my ears.
	7:02pm coelacanth∅: Sam i just went from being in total agreement with you to not...unless "god" and "punish" are metaphors.
	7:04pm (((Murakami Whywolf): May all your deaths be little ones.

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from April 11, 2022

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