WFMU: Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from January 17, 2022

Listener comments!
	🤖 5:59pm Handy Haversack: Mark and all the Techyon Drives! Gotta get the Techgin poured, but more than ready for some Techtonic ...
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Techscursionists!
	6:00pm Niall: @handy: Josephine Foster, perhaps?
	🤖 6:00pm David (in London): Evening Mark and all Technoids.
	6:01pm listener james from westwood: Evening, Mark and all!
	6:02pm lpfnrobin: Hi Mark! Jeesh such crossover chatter on the FM today
	6:02pm WR: Harsh subject. Bring it on.
	6:02pm BillyLundun: Hallo Hallo!
	6:03pm LCBD: Good evening Mark, Handy, and listeners!
	6:03pm HyperDose: Mark Hurst helps the nanobots go down 👾🥤
	6:04pm Stillwell Coney Islander: Hi Mark!
	🤖 6:04pm Handy Haversack: Thanks, Niall! Hi, LCBD, David, ultradamno, Stillwell, James, WR, all! Not that I went anywhere today, but the Black Sabbath BLM shirt has replaced WFMU shirts for the day.
	🤖 6:05pm Webhamster Henry: Hi Techtonic listeners - I'm bracing for a scary show today.
	6:05pm ultradamno: Hiya Handy!
	6:06pm Sam: Good for you Mark coming back to this topic. This needs to be exposed as much as possible.
	6:06pm Claire from Montclair: The episode with Amelia Pang was fascinating!
	🤖 6:08pm Ken From Hyde Park: Hello, Mark and techtoforms. From the "What Could Possibly Go Wring?" department, citizens in a Texas town can register to receive traffic violations via text message: www.techtimes.com...
	6:08pm Mark Hurst: Hi all, thanks for joining & sticking with me this evening - this is an especially important interview & topic.
	6:08pm lpfnrobin: MarkH comes through loud and clear.
	6:08pm Mark Hurst: @Sam @Claire thanks
	6:08pm Ike: Uh oh! Don't get me started on China and the small minority of American leftists, the "tankies", who deny that the concentration camps exist or that China is totalitarian and surveillance-oriented. Some of them are like, "The Hong Kong protestors are just CIA plants!" WTF?!? One FMU DJ is even a tankie. Disturbing shit.
	6:10pm lpfnrobin: It I difficult to know what server your on. So, you'd better just understand your inconsistencies
	6:11pm Fredericks: "Tankie?" Implying "in the tank?" Sorry, I just got here.
	6:11pm LCBD: Thanks Mark for often bringing up subjects that are hard to hear about but, as you said, so important to not ignore.
	6:11pm chris in the redwoods: hi, Mark and folks. tuned in for some learning'. Ike, yeah, i know a tankie. and i've heard some of the stuff on that DJs show... some of it compelling material.
	6:11pm Alex from BK: Thanks for going deeper into this topic Mark
	🤖 6:11pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! All!
	🤖 6:12pm PaulRobeson1920: Hi everyone! Warm greetings from Huntington NY!
	6:13pm Mark Hurst: @Bas @Alek @chris @LCBD and others - thanks for joining in tonight
	6:14pm lpfnrobin: Rings...my monitoring device keeps talking about rings....its a little annoying
	6:16pm lpfnrobin: Especially when it tells you to stand at 3 AM in the morning when you thought you were asleep....
	6:18pm Sam: Sounds like Palestine
	6:19pm Jackie G: Well? Is this a short interview? We got one hour and....
	6:20pm Juli: Whut happened?
	6:20pm chris in the redwoods: whoa. just got stream-shifted. first time for me.
	6:20pm Vanessa bikes: been hacked by china?
	6:21pm Jackie G: China must be disrupting the transmission. Or something
	🤖 6:21pm Folsom: I'm interested in finding out the tankie DJ
	6:21pm Darren: Hi everyone, happy to take any questions you might have.
	6:21pm Ike: @Fredericks, on the origin of "tankies": en.wikipedia.org... But it's come to mean pro-Xi and/or pro-Putin in general, and particularly believing that Xi is a great model leftist and/or that Putin is a leftist or communist at all (which is especially bizarre given that Putin is openly nationalistic, militaristic, anti-LGBTQ+, and blatantly NOT leftist).
	6:22pm Vanessa bikes: Hi Darren, stream is playing music, interview got interrupted!
	6:22pm Ike: Oops, Pro-Xi and/or pro-Putin far leftists, that is.
	6:22pm LCBD: You and me both, Folsom! Hmmmm
	6:22pm Mark Hurst: Let's please focus on the interview tonight - I'm not interested in any negative comments about anyone at WFMU
	6:22pm Claire from Montclair: Terrestrial radio was fine.
	6:22pm WR: Who owns the infrastructure and the data trails...
	6:22pm Mark Hurst: Darren, thanks for joining in this evening!
	6:22pm LCBD: You're right, Mark. Sorry about that
	6:23pm lpfnrobin: 2nd Claire
	6:23pm Mark Hurst: Everyone, meet Darren Byler - Darren, meet everyone :)
	🤖 6:23pm chresti: Hi Mark and Techtonians!
	6:23pm Vanessa bikes: well I paused and restarted and the interview is back. very spooky.
	6:23pm lpfnrobin: Thank you Mark and Darren!!! Wow
	6:24pm Jackie G: Can't hear the interview on the stream
	6:24pm Ike: Sorry, my original goal was to simply point out that some people deny any of this even exists, but then I went off on a tangent. My apologies, I didn't mean to do that. I'm an expert at tangents.
	🤖 6:24pm chresti: I'm listening via app, the pop-up in the other room turned into music?
	🤖 6:25pm chresti: The app is working
	6:25pm Jackie G: got it finally
	🤖 6:26pm chresti: refreshing fixed it
	6:27pm Fredericks: Scan your phone how? Do they have to plug into it or can they just wave a wand over it?
	6:27pm Mark Hurst: @Ike that's fine, thanks
	6:28pm Listener Robert: The veil is a tricky issue. Is it freedom TO wear it? Or freedom FROM it? How do we know in any individual case whether the woman really wants to wear it or is made to wear it by men?
	6:28pm Mark Hurst: @Fredericks I think plug it in, but Darren could weigh in
	6:29pm Darren: They plug a device into a phone using a USB cable. It scans the phone and gives the technician an assessment of the person's digital activity.
	🤖 6:30pm Bas NL: Hard to grasp this is happening on this very planet..
	6:30pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: As someone who tends to identify as Socialist - feel compelled to note what I think is obvious : This is the precise inversion of Marxist Worker Self-Rule. In fact - it makes me think of the sometimes over-cozy relation between Capitalism & Fascism.
	6:31pm Sam: “But I didn’t commit a crime!” “Yeah, that’s what all the criminals say before they’ve done it!”
	6:31pm Fredericks: Thanks, Ike. I'll dig deeper later.
	6:31pm Darren: The politics of the veil are complicated. They can be a tool of patriarchy, or a form of female liberation. This is the best academic book on the topic I've seen: https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691149806/politics-of-piety
	6:31pm Mark Hurst: Sorry, I should've said Professor Byler!
	6:31pm Listener Robert: Thanks, Darren. Where I draw the line is whether the woman has a reasonable way out of a relationship.
	6:32pm Mark Hurst: @Sam heh
	🤖 6:32pm MarciB: This is heartbreaking, infuriating, terrifying...and all I can think of is.. will it happen here? I worry that it will. And the fact that there is little to no word of this from the MSM...
	6:32pm lpfnrobin: Sustain but not get bored. I guess thats one way how the game it goes, around 'gain
	6:33pm Megaroni: Thank you Darren for your courage to be a voice for these people facing such injustice & Mark for giving this a platform
	🤖 6:33pm Handy Haversack: We published some more academic histories of the Uyghurs as a people: cup.columbia.edu... . Full disclosure: "we" = my job.
	6:33pm Darren: it is important to ask Muslim women what they want, otherwise this politics can be used to extend a fundamentally false form of feminism, a kind of imperialist feminism: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674725164
	6:33pm coelacanth∅: if it got more press it'd be considerably more difficult to initiate it in the us, in a (very) few years. the press is tightly controlled here, as anyone with eyes can see.
	6:33pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...as George Carlin noted - certain German Nazi factories were strategically spared. What the Powers That Be really didn't like was the competition... Full bore Orwell & Kafka & the whole shelf of expositions...
	🤖 6:34pm chresti: That's torture!
	6:34pm Mark Hurst: @Marcib @Megaroni huge amount of credit to Darren, for doing the years of research - and credit to the former detainees who were brave enough to tell their stories
	6:35pm Listener Robert: Thanks for the book reference, Darren. Not worth my while at that price, but I see Abe Books has copies in good condition for a fraction of that.
	6:35pm Jackie G: All this horror and China is hosting the Winter Olympics. Any country boycotting the games this year? Nope
	6:36pm timinoak: Informative and alarming. Thank you for researching and presenting it.
	6:36pm Fredericks: Darren, that sounds oppressive and ultra-creepy. Clearing your History probably wouldn't help, would it?
	🤖 6:36pm MarciB: Yess, @ Darren and @Mark thank you both for bringing these horrendous 1984-style situation to light.
	6:36pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...parrallel to the Duhbya & Drumpf eras in the little ol' USA ...'waterboarding in Guantanamo sounds like a fun time till you know what any of those words mean'...
	6:36pm Mark Hurst: @chresti it absolutely is, and Darren's book has much more detail than we're going into during the interview. Nightmare material - and important to know about, though very difficult
	🤖 6:36pm PaulRobeson1920: Sounds like forcing farmers off their land and into factories is the opposite of American ideals… in the Early Republic, Jefferson envisioned the ideal American as a “Yeoman farmer” beholden to no one or any interests beyond their farm & family (This is without touching on the slave society that existed in the Americas- a total institution/The Peculiar Institution)
	6:36pm chris in the redwoods: this is just miserable to hear. damn it. so important. Darren, have you asked any media outlet folks why this doesn't get coverage?
	🤖 6:38pm MarciB: Where is the outrage from Muslim countries too? Maybe there is but I haven't heard anything.
	6:39pm Ike: Another tangent that's hopefully more welcome: There is a Uighur food stall in the New World Mall food court, in Flushing, Queens, called Tarim, among other Uighur establishments. Not sure if this is updated: www.theinfatuation.com... Support your local Uighur restaurants if you have any!
	6:39pm chris in the redwoods: ah ha. there it is.
	6:39pm Sam: Shouldn’t we be implicating Apple and Disney and all the companies that prop up the Chinese govt?
	6:39pm lpfnrobin: George Carlin - Big Club...and membership
	🤖 6:39pm MarciB: @Ike- we're in western Queens and will check it out!
	6:39pm Darren: @PaulRobeson1920 in my academic work I make an argument quite similar to this, that it is part of economic or capitalist frontier making, pushing people off the land and into either the prison or factory. https://www.dukeupress.edu/terror-capitalism
	6:40pm Sam: Disney. It’s a small world after all.
	6:40pm Vanessa bikes: stream interrupted again.. but pause /restart fixes it quick. very odd. great interview topic. So glad to hear more about this.
	6:40pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: It's straight Marx in 1848 actually, Darren.
	6:40pm Mark Hurst: I've also posted Indiebound links to both of Darren's books at left. (If you're reading this in the future, they're at the top of this page.)
	6:41pm Darren: @Chris in the Redwoods, I think it has as much to do with the US new consumer attention span as anything else. I did talk about this with Chris Hayes at MSNBC and there are other interview in the works.
	6:41pm Mark Hurst: (Also linked to a PDF of the introduction to the Terror Capitalism book.)
	6:41pm mazudog: I know you try to emphasize this, but I fear sometimes that these stories, as important as they are, are being used to justify sinophobia. This technology is also being used on the Han Chinese population, and as Mark often points out, is likely increasingly being used on people around the world including US citizens. I wonder if we're all committing a thought crime by even listening to this episode.
	6:43pm Darren: @revolution rabbit. That's right. Marx is an important source for understanding original accumulation
	6:43pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...Marx acknowledged that Capitalism is better than FEUDALISM which is better than outright Slavery. But it's explicit in this that they define a straight line. Seeing where the Line points forward - there is everywhere the both brutal & subtle push to return to Feudalism. There - & here.
	6:43pm coelacanth∅: mazu we are definitely being monitored. we all have files.
	6:43pm Tamar: it's amazing that you were able to get this information, Darren, and major props for getting it out there. I was in Xinjiang in 1995, before any of this, or any inkling of it. It's all terribly horrifying. (Veils not common, btw, headscarves for married women, more common, but I was mostly in cities and towns.)
	6:44pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: There are 100s of U.S. Intelligence Agencies.
	🤖 6:45pm chresti: Just now we could hear ARB??! On our connection with the pop-up
	6:45pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Posited on Techtonic : ...'What Are People For ??'...
	6:45pm lpfnrobin: When a question becomes a crime....... what does that say for leadership? You need to see whats going on and realize there's a lot of stuff to fix....also this is a leadership 'cult' question not anything else
	6:47pm Darren: @masudog I worry a lot about this as well. This is why it is important to foreground all of this as part of a global tech and cheap labour outsourcing economy and a political and military system that disproportionately target Muslim populations, and other ethno-racial minorities around the world.
	🤖 6:48pm Handy Haversack: Yes, Darren, exactly -- just like in the image Mark has in the playlist. Global capital exerting population control and surveillance. Breaking the surface in China, but the bubbles are here and everywhere as well.
	6:48pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Racism & Nationalism - where to get the crowbar in-between them...
	6:49pm chris in the redwoods: thanks so much, Darren and Mark. holy hell. we are in our own dystopian future.
	6:50pm lpfnrobin: Software...RR63
	6:50pm Baja Joe: Very insightful. Good work Mark, bringing this forward.
	6:51pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Certainly worth noting that the 1 Billion 300 Million Chinese & the vast diaspora cannot logically or compassionately be tarred with the same brush.
	6:52pm Niall: Worth noting we have well-established "pre-crime" initiatives in the US, too. Hard to imagine politicians throwing stones lest we notice our own glass houses.
	6:52pm maestroso: The stream keeps shifting; I'm hearing music now. I'm going to have to bail and listen on the archive.
	🤖 6:52pm Handy Haversack: Rev Rab! Did the packages reach you?
	6:53pm Niall: @maestroso: FWIW, it's been rock-solid on the iOS app here.
	6:53pm Listener Robert: Careful with where you point that! "Never again"...do you really want to go all the places that leads?
	6:53pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Niall - what the USA does matters this way for the Global 'Overton Window'. Handy - I'll check tonight !
	6:54pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: No stream probs here with stolen WiFis & iTunes in NewHampshuh...
	6:54pm Corey in AZ: Mark, thank you, thank you, thank you. Never, should this be happening.
	6:54pm Fredericks: Power; not prominence.
	6:54pm coelacanth∅: it's well underway in the us... not just racial, but also "poor" people (thank you "build back better" scam)
	6:54pm Niall: @Revolution Rabbit - oh, yeah, lots of countries taking notes. Awful, vicious circle.
	6:55pm lpfnrobin: Sick people with too much power
	6:55pm Sam: Ubiquitous surveillance is a great way to punch people who are already down. It makes it so much easier for lazy cops to bust some poor bastard drinking a beer or rolling a joint or taking a whizz in the park so they can fine him his last $100 or better yet lock him up cuz he can’t pay.
	6:55pm Niall: Who was that "below my line" guy?
	6:55pm maestroso: @Niall: Yeah, I'm using an old iphone 4s for streaming. The WFMU app is getting more and more dodgy on that phone.
	6:55pm ultradamno: Well, it's hard and ugly...he's got that much right.
	6:56pm Niall: Ah, I can get that from context, now.
	🤖 6:56pm Handy Haversack: Thank you, Mark. We had someone over during most of the show, so I will revisit in the Archive. Darren, thanks so much for being on the board!
	6:56pm Jeff Moore: Surprise: billionaire surveillance capitalist is sociopath.
	6:56pm Listener Robert: One of their problems is that Ouighur sounds like Wigger. The sounds of words does have an effect on people's thinking and attention.
	6:57pm lpfnrobin: Thanks Mark - hang in there were here
	🤖 6:57pm Handy Haversack: And your passion for this is just so necessary, Mark. Sincere gratitude.
	🤖 6:57pm Bas NL: Word.
	6:57pm listener 126464: I hear you Mark.
	6:57pm Yvang: Well said!
	6:57pm NikiA: Mark 🖤
	6:57pm Megaroni: Thank you Mark, you’re a bright light
	🤖 6:57pm chresti: Unbelievable, thanks Mark!
	6:57pm Niall: Much love for @Mark Hurst.
	6:57pm HyperDose: Great show, Sir Hurst of the Tech!
	6:57pm Joe: Thank you, Mark.
	6:57pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...also - for the USA ...they are Muslim. I think that matters. Again - the USA didn't enter the War because of the Nazi Camps.
	🤖 6:57pm Bas NL: Thanks for showing your teeth Mark!
	6:57pm simone: Thanks so much Mark, I'm with you.
	6:58pm Listener Robert: Like in the war between the Hutus and the Tutsis, Tutsi sounds like "Tootsie", and the alternate name Watusi has its own connotations.
	🤖 6:58pm Webhamster Henry: "Let them die and decrease the surplus population." -- Scrooge 2022
	6:58pm Darren: Thanks for that Mark! And thanks for your interest in this everyone.
	🤖 6:58pm Bas NL: And thanks Darren for sharing.
	6:58pm Jackie G: Wow, Mark. Thank you for caring so much. It is an outrage and not enough people care. When is the change gonna happen? When?
	6:58pm Listener Robert: Those considerations are true, Rabbit.
	🤖 6:59pm DjLorraine: I feel better when people speak the hard truth. So Rare..TY
	6:59pm Vanessa bikes: Hang in there Mark, we hear you! you are doing something that few of us are doing, I've been aware of oppression of minorities in China since I was a teenager at a women's rally in DC in 92 and what have I done? thank you!
	6:59pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, everyone, for being with me this evening. Thanks again to Darren for joining us on the comment board.
	🤖 6:59pm PaulRobeson1920: Are there any photos of the camps? Any photo evidence? In LA/San Fran it would seem most of the wealthy folks don’t care about the unhoused people in their own neighborhoods. When those who have the power to effect change don’t care to help people they can see with their own eyes… that facebook billionaire is telling you what his friends really think Thank you mark!!! Telling it like it is!
	6:59pm coelacanth∅: Thank you Mark. Thank you Darren.
	6:59pm Claire from Montclair: I’m going to share this episode with my family. Thank you Mark! And Professor Byler!
	6:59pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: WebHenry - in China - the surface population is actually a factor in all psychologies & strategies...
	6:59pm Ike: Thank you for your passion, Mark! We need more people who will call out every outrage in the world -- not just ours, not just the terrible things the CIA does or did in the past (don't get me wrong, I'm no fan), but every government, on the "left" or on the "right", no matter where it is!
	7:00pm lpfnrobin: Mark - your getting an essay....stay 'here' with us
	7:00pm WR: Goddammit Mark you have me crying in anger and desperation with your voice cracking just then. Yes a whole "nation" is being "re-educated" out of existence. Fuxxxx. Thank you Mark and thank you Darren Byler.
	🤖 7:00pm Handy Haversack: Deep, sincere, and heartfelt thanks, Mark, for your passion and insistence that we confront the injustice and atrocity we permit in the name of convenience.
	7:00pm Ike: @PR1920: www.theguardian.com...
	7:01pm Richy4619: What Handy said. TY Mark, Darren & co.
	🤖 7:18pm PaulRobeson1920: @Ike: Thanks for that Ike… I was thinking photos from the inside- like the photos that came out of prisons in Alabama last year…
	1:31pm Miss G: Thank you for this Mark Hurst. And as always, appreciate the links for further research/dissemination.
	3:27pm Jeanne: Thank you Mark. Your show is an outstanding source of information and insight.

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from January 17, 2022

View Mark Hurst's profile

Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

Also available as an MP3 podcast. More info at our Podcast Central page.

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Upcoming events:

Mon. Nov 25th, 6pm - 7pm: Technology we're thankful for (More info...)
Amidst all the headlines about predatory tech companies and misbehaving billionaires, we're taking a moment to remember that some tech is actually good. Drawing on listener submissions, Mark will discuss the tools, gadgets, and systemsthat people are genuinely thankful for.
Mon. Dec 23rd, 6pm - 7pm: Don Fleming guest hosts Techtonic

January 17, 2022: Darren Byler, author, "In the Camps: China's High-Tech Penal Colony"

Listen to this show: Pop-up listen Pop-up player!

Tonight: Darren Byler, author, In the Camps: China's High-Tech Penal Colony

Links:

• In the Camps: China's High-Tech Penal Colony, by Darren Byler

• Terror Capitalism: Uyghur Dispossession and Masculinity in a Chinese City - read (PDF) the book's introduction

• Darren Byler's columns at SupChina.com

• @dtbyler (Twitter)

• Amelia Pang on Techtonic, June 7, 2021. See also her book Made In China: A Prisoner, an SOS Letter, and the Hidden Cost of America's Cheap Goods, by Amelia Pang, now out in paperback.

• "Nobody cares about what's happening to the Uyghurs, okay?" - ex-Facebook exec (and co-owner of the Golden State Warriors) Chamath Palihapitiya, co-host of the All-In Podcast, Jan 15, 2022

• Video of "The Day Computers Became Obsolete" (helpfully shows lyrics)

• Sign up to get Mark's weekly email newsletter. You can also join Mark's Creative Good community.

PAST EPISODES: techtonic.fm lists recent Techtonic shows.

PODCAST: Subscribe to the Techtonic podcast

Artist	Track	Comments	Approx. start time
Darren Byler, author, "In the Camps: China's High-Tech Penal Colony"
Tomaš Dvořák	Game Boy Tune "Game Boy Tune" by "Tomaš Dvořák"
	Mark's intro "Mark's intro"
	Interview with Darren Byler "Interview with Darren Byler"		0:03:54 (Pop-up)
The Organizing Committee	The Day Computers Became Obsolete	https://notype.bandcamp.com/track/the-day-computers-became-obsolete	0:53:40 (Pop-up)

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Listener comments!
	🤖 5:59pm Handy Haversack: Mark and all the Techyon Drives! Gotta get the Techgin poured, but more than ready for some Techtonic ...
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Techscursionists!
	6:00pm Niall: @handy: Josephine Foster, perhaps?
	🤖 6:00pm David (in London): Evening Mark and all Technoids.
	6:01pm listener james from westwood: Evening, Mark and all!
	6:02pm lpfnrobin: Hi Mark! Jeesh such crossover chatter on the FM today
	6:02pm WR: Harsh subject. Bring it on.
	6:02pm BillyLundun: Hallo Hallo!
	6:03pm LCBD: Good evening Mark, Handy, and listeners!
	6:03pm HyperDose: Mark Hurst helps the nanobots go down 👾🥤
	6:04pm Stillwell Coney Islander: Hi Mark!
	🤖 6:04pm Handy Haversack: Thanks, Niall! Hi, LCBD, David, ultradamno, Stillwell, James, WR, all! Not that I went anywhere today, but the Black Sabbath BLM shirt has replaced WFMU shirts for the day.
	🤖 6:05pm Webhamster Henry: Hi Techtonic listeners - I'm bracing for a scary show today.
	6:05pm ultradamno: Hiya Handy!
	6:06pm Sam: Good for you Mark coming back to this topic. This needs to be exposed as much as possible.
	6:06pm Claire from Montclair: The episode with Amelia Pang was fascinating!
	🤖 6:08pm Ken From Hyde Park: Hello, Mark and techtoforms. From the "What Could Possibly Go Wring?" department, citizens in a Texas town can register to receive traffic violations via text message: www.techtimes.com...
	6:08pm Mark Hurst: Hi all, thanks for joining & sticking with me this evening - this is an especially important interview & topic.
	6:08pm lpfnrobin: MarkH comes through loud and clear.
	6:08pm Mark Hurst: @Sam @Claire thanks
	6:08pm Ike: Uh oh! Don't get me started on China and the small minority of American leftists, the "tankies", who deny that the concentration camps exist or that China is totalitarian and surveillance-oriented. Some of them are like, "The Hong Kong protestors are just CIA plants!" WTF?!? One FMU DJ is even a tankie. Disturbing shit.
	6:10pm lpfnrobin: It I difficult to know what server your on. So, you'd better just understand your inconsistencies
	6:11pm Fredericks: "Tankie?" Implying "in the tank?" Sorry, I just got here.
	6:11pm LCBD: Thanks Mark for often bringing up subjects that are hard to hear about but, as you said, so important to not ignore.
	6:11pm chris in the redwoods: hi, Mark and folks. tuned in for some learning'. Ike, yeah, i know a tankie. and i've heard some of the stuff on that DJs show... some of it compelling material.
	6:11pm Alex from BK: Thanks for going deeper into this topic Mark
	🤖 6:11pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! All!
	🤖 6:12pm PaulRobeson1920: Hi everyone! Warm greetings from Huntington NY!
	6:13pm Mark Hurst: @Bas @Alek @chris @LCBD and others - thanks for joining in tonight
	6:14pm lpfnrobin: Rings...my monitoring device keeps talking about rings....its a little annoying
	6:16pm lpfnrobin: Especially when it tells you to stand at 3 AM in the morning when you thought you were asleep....
	6:18pm Sam: Sounds like Palestine
	6:19pm Jackie G: Well? Is this a short interview? We got one hour and....
	6:20pm Juli: Whut happened?
	6:20pm chris in the redwoods: whoa. just got stream-shifted. first time for me.
	6:20pm Vanessa bikes: been hacked by china?
	6:21pm Jackie G: China must be disrupting the transmission. Or something
	🤖 6:21pm Folsom: I'm interested in finding out the tankie DJ
	6:21pm Darren: Hi everyone, happy to take any questions you might have.
	6:21pm Ike: @Fredericks, on the origin of "tankies": en.wikipedia.org... But it's come to mean pro-Xi and/or pro-Putin in general, and particularly believing that Xi is a great model leftist and/or that Putin is a leftist or communist at all (which is especially bizarre given that Putin is openly nationalistic, militaristic, anti-LGBTQ+, and blatantly NOT leftist).
	6:22pm Vanessa bikes: Hi Darren, stream is playing music, interview got interrupted!
	6:22pm Ike: Oops, Pro-Xi and/or pro-Putin far leftists, that is.
	6:22pm LCBD: You and me both, Folsom! Hmmmm
	6:22pm Mark Hurst: Let's please focus on the interview tonight - I'm not interested in any negative comments about anyone at WFMU
	6:22pm Claire from Montclair: Terrestrial radio was fine.
	6:22pm WR: Who owns the infrastructure and the data trails...
	6:22pm Mark Hurst: Darren, thanks for joining in this evening!
	6:22pm LCBD: You're right, Mark. Sorry about that
	6:23pm lpfnrobin: 2nd Claire
	6:23pm Mark Hurst: Everyone, meet Darren Byler - Darren, meet everyone :)
	🤖 6:23pm chresti: Hi Mark and Techtonians!
	6:23pm Vanessa bikes: well I paused and restarted and the interview is back. very spooky.
	6:23pm lpfnrobin: Thank you Mark and Darren!!! Wow
	6:24pm Jackie G: Can't hear the interview on the stream
	6:24pm Ike: Sorry, my original goal was to simply point out that some people deny any of this even exists, but then I went off on a tangent. My apologies, I didn't mean to do that. I'm an expert at tangents.
	🤖 6:24pm chresti: I'm listening via app, the pop-up in the other room turned into music?
	🤖 6:25pm chresti: The app is working
	6:25pm Jackie G: got it finally
	🤖 6:26pm chresti: refreshing fixed it
	6:27pm Fredericks: Scan your phone how? Do they have to plug into it or can they just wave a wand over it?
	6:27pm Mark Hurst: @Ike that's fine, thanks
	6:28pm Listener Robert: The veil is a tricky issue. Is it freedom TO wear it? Or freedom FROM it? How do we know in any individual case whether the woman really wants to wear it or is made to wear it by men?
	6:28pm Mark Hurst: @Fredericks I think plug it in, but Darren could weigh in
	6:29pm Darren: They plug a device into a phone using a USB cable. It scans the phone and gives the technician an assessment of the person's digital activity.
	🤖 6:30pm Bas NL: Hard to grasp this is happening on this very planet..
	6:30pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: As someone who tends to identify as Socialist - feel compelled to note what I think is obvious : This is the precise inversion of Marxist Worker Self-Rule. In fact - it makes me think of the sometimes over-cozy relation between Capitalism & Fascism.
	6:31pm Sam: “But I didn’t commit a crime!” “Yeah, that’s what all the criminals say before they’ve done it!”
	6:31pm Fredericks: Thanks, Ike. I'll dig deeper later.
	6:31pm Darren: The politics of the veil are complicated. They can be a tool of patriarchy, or a form of female liberation. This is the best academic book on the topic I've seen: https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691149806/politics-of-piety
	6:31pm Mark Hurst: Sorry, I should've said Professor Byler!
	6:31pm Listener Robert: Thanks, Darren. Where I draw the line is whether the woman has a reasonable way out of a relationship.
	6:32pm Mark Hurst: @Sam heh
	🤖 6:32pm MarciB: This is heartbreaking, infuriating, terrifying...and all I can think of is.. will it happen here? I worry that it will. And the fact that there is little to no word of this from the MSM...
	6:32pm lpfnrobin: Sustain but not get bored. I guess thats one way how the game it goes, around 'gain
	6:33pm Megaroni: Thank you Darren for your courage to be a voice for these people facing such injustice & Mark for giving this a platform
	🤖 6:33pm Handy Haversack: We published some more academic histories of the Uyghurs as a people: cup.columbia.edu... . Full disclosure: "we" = my job.
	6:33pm Darren: it is important to ask Muslim women what they want, otherwise this politics can be used to extend a fundamentally false form of feminism, a kind of imperialist feminism: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674725164
	6:33pm coelacanth∅: if it got more press it'd be considerably more difficult to initiate it in the us, in a (very) few years. the press is tightly controlled here, as anyone with eyes can see.
	6:33pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...as George Carlin noted - certain German Nazi factories were strategically spared. What the Powers That Be really didn't like was the competition... Full bore Orwell & Kafka & the whole shelf of expositions...
	🤖 6:34pm chresti: That's torture!
	6:34pm Mark Hurst: @Marcib @Megaroni huge amount of credit to Darren, for doing the years of research - and credit to the former detainees who were brave enough to tell their stories
	6:35pm Listener Robert: Thanks for the book reference, Darren. Not worth my while at that price, but I see Abe Books has copies in good condition for a fraction of that.
	6:35pm Jackie G: All this horror and China is hosting the Winter Olympics. Any country boycotting the games this year? Nope
	6:36pm timinoak: Informative and alarming. Thank you for researching and presenting it.
	6:36pm Fredericks: Darren, that sounds oppressive and ultra-creepy. Clearing your History probably wouldn't help, would it?
	🤖 6:36pm MarciB: Yess, @ Darren and @Mark thank you both for bringing these horrendous 1984-style situation to light.
	6:36pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...parrallel to the Duhbya & Drumpf eras in the little ol' USA ...'waterboarding in Guantanamo sounds like a fun time till you know what any of those words mean'...
	6:36pm Mark Hurst: @chresti it absolutely is, and Darren's book has much more detail than we're going into during the interview. Nightmare material - and important to know about, though very difficult
	🤖 6:36pm PaulRobeson1920: Sounds like forcing farmers off their land and into factories is the opposite of American ideals… in the Early Republic, Jefferson envisioned the ideal American as a “Yeoman farmer” beholden to no one or any interests beyond their farm & family (This is without touching on the slave society that existed in the Americas- a total institution/The Peculiar Institution)
	6:36pm chris in the redwoods: this is just miserable to hear. damn it. so important. Darren, have you asked any media outlet folks why this doesn't get coverage?
	🤖 6:38pm MarciB: Where is the outrage from Muslim countries too? Maybe there is but I haven't heard anything.
	6:39pm Ike: Another tangent that's hopefully more welcome: There is a Uighur food stall in the New World Mall food court, in Flushing, Queens, called Tarim, among other Uighur establishments. Not sure if this is updated: www.theinfatuation.com... Support your local Uighur restaurants if you have any!
	6:39pm chris in the redwoods: ah ha. there it is.
	6:39pm Sam: Shouldn’t we be implicating Apple and Disney and all the companies that prop up the Chinese govt?
	6:39pm lpfnrobin: George Carlin - Big Club...and membership
	🤖 6:39pm MarciB: @Ike- we're in western Queens and will check it out!
	6:39pm Darren: @PaulRobeson1920 in my academic work I make an argument quite similar to this, that it is part of economic or capitalist frontier making, pushing people off the land and into either the prison or factory. https://www.dukeupress.edu/terror-capitalism
	6:40pm Sam: Disney. It’s a small world after all.
	6:40pm Vanessa bikes: stream interrupted again.. but pause /restart fixes it quick. very odd. great interview topic. So glad to hear more about this.
	6:40pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: It's straight Marx in 1848 actually, Darren.
	6:40pm Mark Hurst: I've also posted Indiebound links to both of Darren's books at left. (If you're reading this in the future, they're at the top of this page.)
	6:41pm Darren: @Chris in the Redwoods, I think it has as much to do with the US new consumer attention span as anything else. I did talk about this with Chris Hayes at MSNBC and there are other interview in the works.
	6:41pm Mark Hurst: (Also linked to a PDF of the introduction to the Terror Capitalism book.)
	6:41pm mazudog: I know you try to emphasize this, but I fear sometimes that these stories, as important as they are, are being used to justify sinophobia. This technology is also being used on the Han Chinese population, and as Mark often points out, is likely increasingly being used on people around the world including US citizens. I wonder if we're all committing a thought crime by even listening to this episode.
	6:43pm Darren: @revolution rabbit. That's right. Marx is an important source for understanding original accumulation
	6:43pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...Marx acknowledged that Capitalism is better than FEUDALISM which is better than outright Slavery. But it's explicit in this that they define a straight line. Seeing where the Line points forward - there is everywhere the both brutal & subtle push to return to Feudalism. There - & here.
	6:43pm coelacanth∅: mazu we are definitely being monitored. we all have files.
	6:43pm Tamar: it's amazing that you were able to get this information, Darren, and major props for getting it out there. I was in Xinjiang in 1995, before any of this, or any inkling of it. It's all terribly horrifying. (Veils not common, btw, headscarves for married women, more common, but I was mostly in cities and towns.)
	6:44pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: There are 100s of U.S. Intelligence Agencies.
	🤖 6:45pm chresti: Just now we could hear ARB??! On our connection with the pop-up
	6:45pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Posited on Techtonic : ...'What Are People For ??'...
	6:45pm lpfnrobin: When a question becomes a crime....... what does that say for leadership? You need to see whats going on and realize there's a lot of stuff to fix....also this is a leadership 'cult' question not anything else
	6:47pm Darren: @masudog I worry a lot about this as well. This is why it is important to foreground all of this as part of a global tech and cheap labour outsourcing economy and a political and military system that disproportionately target Muslim populations, and other ethno-racial minorities around the world.
	🤖 6:48pm Handy Haversack: Yes, Darren, exactly -- just like in the image Mark has in the playlist. Global capital exerting population control and surveillance. Breaking the surface in China, but the bubbles are here and everywhere as well.
	6:48pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Racism & Nationalism - where to get the crowbar in-between them...
	6:49pm chris in the redwoods: thanks so much, Darren and Mark. holy hell. we are in our own dystopian future.
	6:50pm lpfnrobin: Software...RR63
	6:50pm Baja Joe: Very insightful. Good work Mark, bringing this forward.
	6:51pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Certainly worth noting that the 1 Billion 300 Million Chinese & the vast diaspora cannot logically or compassionately be tarred with the same brush.
	6:52pm Niall: Worth noting we have well-established "pre-crime" initiatives in the US, too. Hard to imagine politicians throwing stones lest we notice our own glass houses.
	6:52pm maestroso: The stream keeps shifting; I'm hearing music now. I'm going to have to bail and listen on the archive.
	🤖 6:52pm Handy Haversack: Rev Rab! Did the packages reach you?
	6:53pm Niall: @maestroso: FWIW, it's been rock-solid on the iOS app here.
	6:53pm Listener Robert: Careful with where you point that! "Never again"...do you really want to go all the places that leads?
	6:53pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Niall - what the USA does matters this way for the Global 'Overton Window'. Handy - I'll check tonight !
	6:54pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: No stream probs here with stolen WiFis & iTunes in NewHampshuh...
	6:54pm Corey in AZ: Mark, thank you, thank you, thank you. Never, should this be happening.
	6:54pm Fredericks: Power; not prominence.
	6:54pm coelacanth∅: it's well underway in the us... not just racial, but also "poor" people (thank you "build back better" scam)
	6:54pm Niall: @Revolution Rabbit - oh, yeah, lots of countries taking notes. Awful, vicious circle.
	6:55pm lpfnrobin: Sick people with too much power
	6:55pm Sam: Ubiquitous surveillance is a great way to punch people who are already down. It makes it so much easier for lazy cops to bust some poor bastard drinking a beer or rolling a joint or taking a whizz in the park so they can fine him his last $100 or better yet lock him up cuz he can’t pay.
	6:55pm Niall: Who was that "below my line" guy?
	6:55pm maestroso: @Niall: Yeah, I'm using an old iphone 4s for streaming. The WFMU app is getting more and more dodgy on that phone.
	6:55pm ultradamno: Well, it's hard and ugly...he's got that much right.
	6:56pm Niall: Ah, I can get that from context, now.
	🤖 6:56pm Handy Haversack: Thank you, Mark. We had someone over during most of the show, so I will revisit in the Archive. Darren, thanks so much for being on the board!
	6:56pm Jeff Moore: Surprise: billionaire surveillance capitalist is sociopath.
	6:56pm Listener Robert: One of their problems is that Ouighur sounds like Wigger. The sounds of words does have an effect on people's thinking and attention.
	6:57pm lpfnrobin: Thanks Mark - hang in there were here
	🤖 6:57pm Handy Haversack: And your passion for this is just so necessary, Mark. Sincere gratitude.
	🤖 6:57pm Bas NL: Word.
	6:57pm listener 126464: I hear you Mark.
	6:57pm Yvang: Well said!
	6:57pm NikiA: Mark 🖤
	6:57pm Megaroni: Thank you Mark, you’re a bright light
	🤖 6:57pm chresti: Unbelievable, thanks Mark!
	6:57pm Niall: Much love for @Mark Hurst.
	6:57pm HyperDose: Great show, Sir Hurst of the Tech!
	6:57pm Joe: Thank you, Mark.
	6:57pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...also - for the USA ...they are Muslim. I think that matters. Again - the USA didn't enter the War because of the Nazi Camps.
	🤖 6:57pm Bas NL: Thanks for showing your teeth Mark!
	6:57pm simone: Thanks so much Mark, I'm with you.
	6:58pm Listener Robert: Like in the war between the Hutus and the Tutsis, Tutsi sounds like "Tootsie", and the alternate name Watusi has its own connotations.
	🤖 6:58pm Webhamster Henry: "Let them die and decrease the surplus population." -- Scrooge 2022
	6:58pm Darren: Thanks for that Mark! And thanks for your interest in this everyone.
	🤖 6:58pm Bas NL: And thanks Darren for sharing.
	6:58pm Jackie G: Wow, Mark. Thank you for caring so much. It is an outrage and not enough people care. When is the change gonna happen? When?
	6:58pm Listener Robert: Those considerations are true, Rabbit.
	🤖 6:59pm DjLorraine: I feel better when people speak the hard truth. So Rare..TY
	6:59pm Vanessa bikes: Hang in there Mark, we hear you! you are doing something that few of us are doing, I've been aware of oppression of minorities in China since I was a teenager at a women's rally in DC in 92 and what have I done? thank you!
	6:59pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, everyone, for being with me this evening. Thanks again to Darren for joining us on the comment board.
	🤖 6:59pm PaulRobeson1920: Are there any photos of the camps? Any photo evidence? In LA/San Fran it would seem most of the wealthy folks don’t care about the unhoused people in their own neighborhoods. When those who have the power to effect change don’t care to help people they can see with their own eyes… that facebook billionaire is telling you what his friends really think Thank you mark!!! Telling it like it is!
	6:59pm coelacanth∅: Thank you Mark. Thank you Darren.
	6:59pm Claire from Montclair: I’m going to share this episode with my family. Thank you Mark! And Professor Byler!
	6:59pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: WebHenry - in China - the surface population is actually a factor in all psychologies & strategies...
	6:59pm Ike: Thank you for your passion, Mark! We need more people who will call out every outrage in the world -- not just ours, not just the terrible things the CIA does or did in the past (don't get me wrong, I'm no fan), but every government, on the "left" or on the "right", no matter where it is!
	7:00pm lpfnrobin: Mark - your getting an essay....stay 'here' with us
	7:00pm WR: Goddammit Mark you have me crying in anger and desperation with your voice cracking just then. Yes a whole "nation" is being "re-educated" out of existence. Fuxxxx. Thank you Mark and thank you Darren Byler.
	🤖 7:00pm Handy Haversack: Deep, sincere, and heartfelt thanks, Mark, for your passion and insistence that we confront the injustice and atrocity we permit in the name of convenience.
	7:00pm Ike: @PR1920: www.theguardian.com...
	7:01pm Richy4619: What Handy said. TY Mark, Darren & co.
	🤖 7:18pm PaulRobeson1920: @Ike: Thanks for that Ike… I was thinking photos from the inside- like the photos that came out of prisons in Alabama last year…
	1:31pm Miss G: Thank you for this Mark Hurst. And as always, appreciate the links for further research/dissemination.
	3:27pm Jeanne: Thank you Mark. Your show is an outstanding source of information and insight.

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from January 17, 2022

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