WFMU: Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from August 9, 2021

Listener comments!
	5:54pm listener james from westwood: FWIW this show is why I never allowed NJ to use my phone signal to alert me to COVID proximity. No idea how safe my data is in those hands.
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Techtapplicants!
	6:01pm Davi: Good night everyone!
	🤖 6:02pm tim from washington: Hey Mark and folks! I've been MIA from Techtonic for a few weeks. I'm glad to be back.
	6:02pm TDK60: Hi Mark.
	🤖 6:02pm Ken From Hyde Park: Hi, Mark and avatars!
	6:03pm queems: hello mark hurst & others
	6:04pm chris in the redwoods: hi, Mark and folks. also have not been around for a bit. glad to be listening in again.
	6:04pm The Butterman: Hi there Mark, hi Queems , I’m just here to get my weekly dose of paranoia.
	6:04pm queems: i made a folder on my phone and scanned my vaccine card. problem solved
	6:05pm I k e: Speaking of de Blasio, what is everyone's bet on what pathetic single digit he'll max out at in the Dem primary for governor? My money is on 1%.
	6:05pm queems: hello @the butterman, i hope you are holding up ok over there
	🤖 6:05pm Webhamster Henry: Best, obviously, would be a super-fast COVID detection test.
	🤖 6:05pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! Tech-heads!
	6:05pm chris in the redwoods: i did something similar, queems. not sure why i would get an app...
	6:05pm ARB: Hi Mark and fellow skeptechs!
	🤖 6:06pm David (in London): Evening Technoids.
	🤖 6:06pm Ken From Hyde Park: Nice work, DiL!
	6:06pm vanya moscow: Hi everyone. We have a personal QR-code to prove vaccine status here in Moscow, Russia
	6:06pm People Like Us: nice
	🤖 6:06pm Webhamster Henry: "Saddest Music" was a Sports movie? or just there as a baseline?
	6:07pm Franco Twinkie: Oh boy! The waters will be muddied even further. The future smells foul indeed.
	6:07pm chris in the redwoods: hey, David (iL). nice graphic!
	🤖 6:07pm David (in London): My pleasure, thanks for putting it up there Mark.
	6:07pm ultradamno: It was a competition
	6:08pm Carmichael: We have a QR code in California too.
	6:09pm Anonymous Anxious avoidant: Greetings Mark, guest、& listeners. What if you don’t have smartphone?
	6:09pm listener james from westwood: I keep hearing "Foxconn," which is a whole other can of worms.
	6:09pm vanya moscow: We used to have though a pretty creepy obligatory quarantine app to control your movement if you’re quarantined. Had to send selfies upon receiving sms in weird time several times a day to prove your phone with you. Did you have anything like it?
	🤖 6:09pm DjLorraine: Last night i had to admit my 73 yr old FUX news watcher friend to the hospital. He has covid and pulminary embolism.i was masked but Now i have to have to get tested. I told the hospital i have an oximeter and it was 85. They told me it's 98 and that's why they don't listen to people. I insisted i have an oximeter. They did the other hand and it was 81 and the alarm would not stop beeping.
	6:09pm Megaroni: This is feeling a bit like Invasion of The Bodysnatchers
	6:10pm Franco Twinkie: I was looking forward to wearing my CDC card as a fashion accessory and keeping my phone out of it.
	6:10pm melinda: @listener james me too!
	6:10pm ultradamno: Not saying Murderball seems like a oversight now. And wheelchairs are tech too.
	🤖 6:10pm Bas NL: NL has an app/QR available. But you can print yours from a computer; no need for a mobile app.
	6:10pm queems: @vanya lol no, the health department didn’t even contact me until 12 days into my 14 day quarantine
	🤖 6:11pm herb.nyc: I sometimes sharpie VACCINATED on my left arm, to show people. (On my right, I have SEE OTHER ARM)
	6:11pm chris in the redwoods: AAa, my advice is photocopy and laminate the copy of your cdc covid vaccine card and carry the copy around with you.
	🤖 6:11pm tim from washington: Dumb question. Why is an app more secure than CDC card?
	6:11pm Mark Hurst: Hi @james @ultra @Davi @tim @TDK @KfHP @queems @chris @Butterman @Ike @Webham @Bas @ARB @DiL @vanya @PLU/Vicki @Franco @Carmichael @Anxious @Lorraine @Megaroni @melinda @herb !! Thanks, everyone, for joining!
	6:12pm ultradamno: @TFW I can't see how it would be.
	6:12pm Franco Twinkie: Is good for discounts at Old Navy?
	🤖 6:13pm tim from washington: @herb.nyc - What if you're wearing long sleeves? Otherwise, excellent idea!!!!
	6:13pm queems: you can shrink the card down and laminate/put it in your wallet. i did that as well
	6:13pm Mark Hurst: @Tim and @chris, glad you're back with us this evening - welcome back to the dystopian fold!
	🤖 6:13pm Webhamster Henry: Yes the card is indeed clumsy and easily forgeable.
	6:14pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...they say don't laminate the actual card - cause boosters seem likely.
	6:14pm Mark Hurst: @vanya that's interesting about the QR code - that's exactly what Albert is worried about in our (New York State) Excelsior Pass
	6:14pm morphe': Same is true in the EU - Excelsior (QR) not accepted nor the 2 shot card .. Got my 3rd Moderna in Madrid and #4 next week to get my EU Pass too.
	🤖 6:14pm Webhamster Henry: RR63 I was just going to say that!
	6:15pm melinda: haha
	🤖 6:15pm Webhamster Henry: Well, you really want the COVID card in the Blockchain <ducking>
	6:15pm chris in the redwoods: i've seen privacy concerns around all the QR code menus at restaurants
	🤖 6:16pm Ken From Hyde Park: If we all just had "the chip" imbedded, it could easily be scanned and show them our status.
	🤖 6:16pm Webhamster Henry: I bet the Pandemic group disbanded by Trump might have had some ideas about cryptographic verification.
	6:16pm iiibeat: Turning people into operating systems . . Updates required. 666
	6:17pm Franco Twinkie: Also, a large part of the population no longer knows how to operate a piece of paper.
	6:17pm headcleaner: So true, Franco
	6:17pm TDK60: I'm stickin' with the paper card.
	6:18pm Carmichael: @Ken, I thought the vaccine did that.
	🤖 6:18pm tim from washington: @Franco - no kidding!
	🤖 6:19pm Bas NL: And then again... my sister had 2 x shots and still got Covid after that. So what does a pass prove?
	🤖 6:19pm Webhamster Henry: There was a similar effort for AIDS status back when it was realized there needed to be an anonymous way of exchanging that status, probably under situations with bad lighting.
	6:19pm headcleaner: It all comes down to this "everything needs to be an app" - and it's brother, "everyone has a smartphone" - mentality which, sadly, have pretty much eaten the world now
	6:20pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...& - may need to write on an unlaminated card again cause - just like the FluShot - no one knows precisely how long the Vax will last you. Originally they were saying probly nine months. Which is soon for me !! :O Aside I mean from likely needing Boosters for variants.
	6:20pm chris in the redwoods: that's an excellent question, Bas.
	6:20pm queems: if i just don’t go anywhere for the indefinite future none of this even applies to me
	6:21pm B R M: In July, I was at the Cannes Film Festival, where we were required to take a COVID test every 48 hours because France and the USA do not have a reciprocal recognition for vaccinated individuals- so Americans bringing home French vaccinations would not be recognized and vice versa. That part is politics and the proprietary status of vaccination apps (The EU has their own vaccine passport for which Americans are not eligible). Yet, at the airport, I could show my card and it was 100% fine because airlines have virtual approval pass systems, in my case, VERIFLY on American Airlines. It is a moving target as various countries have different ratings of one another's status, etc.
	6:22pm ultradamno: Soon, a captcha where you have to identify pictures of you.
	6:22pm Carmichael: I'm a luddite. How are QR codes not safe?
	🤖 6:22pm Webhamster Henry: CAPTCHAs will have you identify drone targets.
	6:23pm Franco Twinkie: Queems, you're right! Just stay in the house till you expire and everything will be fine.
	6:23pm chris in the redwoods: the website you're directed to, with the QR code, can do lots of stuff w/out your knowledge. i'm no security expert, Carm, but that's at least one thing i have heard.
	6:23pm ledzeppelinsucks: That Covid thing is a mid range bummer.
	6:24pm queems: @franco twinkie way ahead of you
	6:24pm iiibeat: So many open doors with this incredibly deep issue/situation . . Is it even possible to vaccinate against a mutating zootropic virus? Are we ushering in an authoritarian system of required updates/boosters?
	6:25pm ultradamno: I got one redeeming a Netflix gift card that was just one picture of a guy on a motorcycle broken into a grid with the instruction "identify every motorcycle". Subtle.
	6:25pm headcleaner: @Bas - "what does it prove?" - It's true that the vaccines don't offer perfect protection against infection (and against Delta, perhaps only 85-90 percent). But still that's far better than -no- protection as is the case without vaccines. It's not a perfect line of defense, but statistically speaking, still a fairly decent one. It's true that the vaccines don't offer perfect protection against infection (and against Delta, perhaps only 85-90 percent).
	🤖 6:25pm Webhamster Henry: Printing out a shrunken versions of your card. ENABLING THE EVIL PRINTER INK CONSORTIUM!
	🤖 6:25pm tim from washington: Good question, Carmichael. I don't know but as a skeptic I assume that they are. It'd be good to why.
	6:26pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: I suppose no Hackers or Scammers or for that matter Ideological Terrorists / AntiVaxxers will be drawn to this like monster magnets...
	6:26pm iiibeat: Rise again Luddites!! For Christ Sake!!
	🤖 6:26pm Ken From Hyde Park: On my headstone, maybe I'll have a QR code that points to partygirls.com.
	6:27pm headcleaner: Also - with so many people being vaxxed by now - it's not surprising (inevitable in fact) that everyone seems to know someone in their social orbeit who got infected despite being 2x vaxxed. That's just basic mathematics. (Right?) What matters is the overall statistical argument in favor vaxxing (and requiring proof thereof), which is quite solid
	6:28pm I k e: @iiibeat@6:24, 1) yes, it is, you ding-a-ling, and 2) was the polio vaccine authoritarianism? Gimme a break.
	🤖 6:28pm Webhamster Henry: @KenFH/P: "Don't Miss.... The Party Girls!"
	🤖 6:28pm Bas NL: @headcleaner The problem is vaccinated people ACT as if they are no longer a risk.
	6:29pm ultradamno: @Ike or smallpox, which was (thankfully) compulsory
	6:29pm chris in the redwoods: to Ike's point, and to Mark's point, iiibeat, its not the vaccines (which have quite a long and legal history of being mandated) its the technology being used that can exploit us.
	6:30pm headcleaner: @Bas - agreed
	6:30pm TDK60: So many vaxxed? I think we need to go higher. And about those poorer countries, Big Pharma?
	6:30pm Marie: People are suspicious about the speed of the CV vaccine but I think it was built on the research for the ebola vaccine--I think public health officials should talk about that. The underlying science was being researched for years
	6:30pm chris in the redwoods: *being used to track the vaccines
	6:30pm Carmichael: I'm vaxxed and don't consider myself to be a risk. To anyone except the unvaxxed, of course.
	6:31pm queems: THANKS APPLE
	6:31pm Marie: vaccine development (emph.)
	6:31pm I k e: @Marie, exactly. That's a hugely important point. Lots of coronaviruses were already out there and they were already being researched.
	6:32pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: It is because of AntiVaxxers the virus has a Petri dish to mutate ever stronger, more transmissible, & vaccine resistant variants. We do not owe AntiVaxxers a polite & tolerant place in any Forum. This is no game - this is everyone's life, health, socio-economics, cultures & survival - & more. It's been a year & a half. ENUFF.
	6:32pm iiibeat: @Ike . . And . . How is it possible? That wasn't a very convincing answer . . At all. Apples to oranges, man . . We are not talking about Polio. Context also mutates, believe it or not.
	🤖 6:32pm Bas NL: @Carmichael That's what my sister thought as well.
	6:33pm iiibeat: Eye in The Sky = Eye in Yo Eye.
	🤖 6:33pm Ken From Hyde Park: I understand the Beijing 2022 Winter Olympics are in six months. It'll be interesting to see their virus control procedures for visitors.
	6:34pm Marie: Thanks, Ike--I don't understand why public health officials speak of that
	🤖 6:34pm Webhamster Henry: Or.. the usual justification for every (questionable) tech advance: "It will help Our Troops!".
	6:34pm ottovonbqe: it defies logic that unvaccinated are a "Petri dish" you sound like a nazi.
	6:34pm Peter from Dover NJ: Mark, do you have any insight on the Docket appetite? being used as a vaxxport app here in NJ.
	6:34pm queems: that’s why i’ll never activate icloud
	6:34pm Marci: As a photo organizer this is frightening-what’s to stop Apple from viewing say naked baby photos (ie baby’s first bath) as “pornography”?
	6:34pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Granted - we should have had a WWII level of organizational coordination of resources - dissemination of Information - & collective Morale. With Drumpf we got the exact opposite - the worst kind of malfeasance. None of this is his to deal with now, however.
	6:35pm chris in the redwoods: ottovonbqe, it is exactly logical and scientific. look it up, please.
	6:35pm Marie: Apple appeals to people who want to trust "authority"
	6:35pm headcleaner: @Carmichael - unfortunately that isn't true. You can still catch (and spread) the virus, even if vaccinated. (The risk is small with "classic" covid -- but apparently much stronger with Delta). And when you consider events with rooms full of people yakking away like the pandemic is over and we're in the Roaring 20s now... that's pretty much exactly why Delta is surging right now. (On top of what all the anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are doing, of course).
	6:36pm Carmichael: I agree with RR, otto. The variant has a much more difficult time mutating through vaxxed people, while it rips freely through those with no vaxx, mutating all the way. Nothing Nazi about that, just basic science.
	6:36pm ottovonbqe: nonsense. unscientific and no different than nazi ideology.
	6:36pm headcleaner: I'm in the "just chuck 'em in the river" camp. Would do so myself except for the fact.. that I've never owned one of those buggers
	6:36pm I k e: @iiibeat, your paranoid ramblings might as well be Swahili to me.
	6:36pm Marie: Apple has created an "in group" that people feel good about being a member of--ur supposedly smarter and in the know about tech
	6:37pm ottovonbqe: "dirty unclean people infecting us good people"
	6:37pm Mark Hurst: Let's cool it on the nazi talk.. I'll invoke Godwin's Law & shut down those chat threads. Please keep it respectful
	6:37pm Little Danny: Great interview, Mark.
	🤖 6:38pm Bas NL: Mutation is possible in anyone infected. Vaccinated or not.
	6:39pm queems: at this stage in the game there is absolutely zero excuse for antivax sentiment, especially here. read the room
	6:39pm Carmichael: Agreed Bas, but the unvaxxed are taking the brunt of the variant. Although no one is truly safe, I would much rather be vaxxed.
	6:39pm chris in the redwoods: Bas, possible but significantly less likely, because the virus does not live as long in vaxxed people.
	6:40pm David in London: I don’t know whether it’s the same in the US, but here in the U.K. the banks, for example, have massively channel shifted toward mobile apps. If you chucked your mobile in the Hudson (that would take quite a throw from central London) or the Thames, it would be difficult to do basic banking. That’s so far it’s embedded in everyday life.
	6:41pm Glistener MW: I just tuned in to Mark bidding adieu to Mr Foxconn [sic:me] and thought for a split second it might be the figurehead behind the Foxconn iPhone factories
	6:41pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Yes - I believe the CDC is now saying the vaccinated should mask again - because we can carry a load of the new variant that is transmissible. ottovonbque - how on Earth are you & your sources more 'scientific' than what the CDC & WHO & 98% of the Global Medical Establishment say? & how are your sources more concerned with Humanity than them ? Our Well-Being is not what your & their resistance is about. It is other deep-seated social resentments & political advantages. & we're not impressed.
	6:42pm I k e: @David, I use an obscure credit union and do all my banking on a desktop or laptop at home, and only at home. Mobile banking makes me nervous, especially on wi-fi.
	6:44pm headcleaner: Bas - basically the answer to the problem you mentioned (vaxxed people acting like they're fully protected) is that we need much better enforcement of what everyone agrees are the basic safeguards that should be in place. All it takes is political will and a bit of creativity. For example, I'd love to see mask use actually -enforced- on the NYC subway. It would cost basically nothing (compared to the economic damage caused by the ongoing pandemic) and do a lot to bring the numbers down.
	6:46pm ultradamno: This could be a problem for the ever-popular strip club buffets.
	6:46pm I k e: There's a restaurant called Hot Space that I wanted to try, but they require you to scan a dumb QR code to get a table, and I'm like... no. Go to hell, there's plenty of other restaurants in this neighborhood. Ugh.
	🤖 6:47pm Webhamster Henry: Foursquare! I may have been the Mayor of Molé Molé here in Kingston.
	6:47pm iiibeat: @Ike . . Covid = Polio. Keep up the Good Work!!
	🤖 6:47pm Bas NL: @headcleaner I think we'd better stay watchful. In the NL things are opening up quickly and the infections are on a rise again.
	6:47pm headcleaner: David - haven't seen that particular form of abuse (force-feeding mobile banking) in the US yet. But by and large, it's just not that hard to avoid using phones - it just takes a bit of focus and imagination. On the order of say, avoiding chain stores and fast food.
	6:47pm Franco Twinkie: The first time I saw one of these adds I rubbed my eyes in disbelief. Just like the accelerated collapse of the entire eco system, the arrival of the inescapable and all consuming surveillance state makes me want to lay down and take a dirtnap ahead of schedule.
	6:47pm Roland from Australia: Yo brothers, A bit late for the tech tonic alarms today.
	🤖 6:48pm tim from washington: Ike just post what I was about to post about restaurants with QR codes.
	🤖 6:48pm Webhamster Henry: @Roland: what are Australian Vaccine status apps/cards like?
	6:49pm iiibeat: Patrick Henry once said . . "Give me Covid or Give Me DEATH!"
	6:50pm Carmichael: "COVID=Polio". Probably the dumbest thing I've heard today, Jason.
	6:50pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Bill of Digital Rights How can we make this a popular political imperative ?
	🤖 6:51pm Folsom: All I wanted was a Pepsi!!!
	6:51pm iiibeat: @Carmichael . . No shit!! And all I had to do in order to achieve that was . . Repeat it.
	6:53pm paul: should i get a smartphone? Ive been on the fence this past week. Just moved away from home to a new school
	6:54pm queems: @iiibeat nobody else said it though, you clown
	6:54pm yes but...: It's a slippery slope from tech-skepticism to anti-vaxxing talking points...The countries that had the best results pre-vaccine in dealing w Covid seemed to be the ones where tracing was most vigorous. The paper card isn't going to be meaningful in a contact tracing program (which doesn't really exist yet anyway here in the States)....
	6:54pm David in London: When 9/11 happened, a government advisor here was famously exposed as saying it was “a good day to bury bad news”. With that kind of attitude I shudder to think of all the things being buried - or introduced - under cover of this pandemic. Big tech must be having a flamin’ field day.
	6:54pm Dude: I got a card from Maimonides w my vaxx’ info Allgood Relax As for the recording device we all embrace Won’t be taking it to any felonies mmkay
	6:54pm ledzeppelinsucks: Vax cards are going to look like those old maintenance logs on the door jambs of cars.
	6:55pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: War is Peace Ignorance is Strength Unvaccinated is Health Panopticon is Privacy
	6:55pm I k e: @paul, if you decide you need one, you can get a cheap older one, like an iPhone 6. That's perfectly passable. Newest shit is absolutely unnecessary.
	6:55pm Richy4619: Enjoying listening, reading and grieving along. Thx Mark ~
	🤖 6:55pm Folsom: Bigfoot, paging Bigfoot, waiting for his presence
	6:55pm listener james from westwood: Thanks, Mark!
	6:55pm TDK60: Thanks, Mark. \| Get vaxxed!
	6:56pm Franco Twinkie: It is.
	6:56pm chris in the redwoods: thanks, Mark!
	6:56pm iiibeat: What was that tracking project implemented in Afghanistan by the US military?
	6:56pm Roland from Australia: Webb Hamster Henry - They only, afaik, ask where you are, based on the bar code you scan as you walk in to the store, So the onus is on the store to register the code and display printed on the door, and I understand that is what the app uses to determine where are you signed in and who else signed in there. But then again you just never know do you what exactly is collecting? I set mine to only allow location details as I sign in.
	6:56pm People Like Us: thanks Mark
	6:56pm ledzeppelinsucks: Sep is the month for new phones.
	🤖 6:56pm Bas NL: Thanks Mark!
	6:56pm David in London: Thanks Mark. Night Technoids.
	6:56pm Carmichael: Thanks Mark.
	6:56pm Dude: I got my covid positive four days post vax onebtw Duh duh duh Loved the meals. Didn’t do the hotel but soooo tempted
	🤖 6:56pm tim from washington: Thanks, Mark!
	6:57pm coelacanth∅: Thanks Mark
	🤖 6:57pm tim from washington: I LOVE THE A FRAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This song rules.
	6:57pm WFMU listener WADE: CRASS: "Where Next Columbus?"
	6:57pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, everyone! Sorry I forgot to say again: please stay tuned to WFMU for Do Or DIY with @People Like Us!
	6:57pm ultradamno: A Blumin Funyun!
	6:57pm Little Danny: Perfect closer.
	🤖 6:58pm Ken From Hyde Park: Thanks for, er, unmasking the inside info on vaccine tracking, Mark!
	🤖 6:58pm tim from washington: Man, if you like your music paranoid, you can't go wrong with A Frames.
	6:59pm StringOFperils: I think I'm being followed.
	🤖 6:59pm chresti: Hey a pizza cutter!
	6:59pm Roland from Australia: I’m fired up for the week again. Love this show!
	6:59pm chaos_in_la_la: 🔺🔺🔺
	6:59pm ultradamno: Still need to play Boys Next Door's "Somebody's Watching Me"
	7:00pm ledzeppelinsucks: That was delightful.
	7:00pm HyperDose: Riveting radio, Mark!
	7:02pm ARB: Thanks Mark!
	7:23pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: TY Always MH !

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from August 9, 2021

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

Also available as an MP3 podcast. More info at our Podcast Central page.

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Upcoming events:

Mon. Dec 23rd, 6pm - 7pm: Don Fleming guest hosts Techtonic
Mon. Dec 30th, 6pm - 7pm: Andrew Smith, author, "Devil in the Stack" (More info...)
Writer Andrew Smith decided to learn computer programming in his 50s. What happened next is captured in his book "Devil in the Stack: A Code Odyssey," and wide-ranging tour through computer history, neuroscience, and the friendliest programming language.

August 9, 2021: Vaccine apps - with Albert Fox Cahn

Listen to this show: Pop-up listen Pop-up player!

Tonight: Vaccine apps - with Albert Fox Cahn

Thanks to David in London for the infographic showing last week's comment-board movie picks!

Links:

• @FoxCahn (Twitter)

• Albert's bio

• Surveillance Technology Oversight Project (STOP)

• STOP's Big Bad Tech initiative

• STOP's The Good, the Bad, and the Invasive report on vaccine apps: "Domestic vaccine apps, such as New York’s Excelsior Pass, raise numerous surveillance and equity concerns. These apps facilitate invasive geolocation tracking and threaten a new form of segregation". . .

• I Forged New York’s Digital Vaccine Passport in 11 Minutes Flat (by Albert Fox Cahn in the Daily Beast, June 3, 2021): "Going through the process, it felt like New York had built a massive, digital bank vault, but set the combination to '1-2-3-4.'"

• Privacy and efficacy concerns remain for New York's vaccine passport apps (by Cyrus Farivar in NBC News, Aug 5, 2021): "Cahn demonstrated this week that the city’s smartphone app, known as NYC Covid Safe, will accept literally any picture as proof of having had a vaccine shot by showing that it accepted a photograph of Mickey Mouse as a vaccination card."

• Pfizer and Moderna Mock Biden, Raise Vaccine Prices (by Matt Stoller, Aug 6, 2021): "Earlier this week, Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna, who make vaccines that are effective against the Delta variant of Covid, raised prices on their vaccines. According to the FT, the European Union must now pay an extra 25% than it did for the Pfizer vaccine, and 10% more for Moderna’s. The extra revenue is purely a result of market power, not higher costs. Pfizer has already raised estimates to investors, telling them it will generate $33 billion this year selling the vaccine."

• Four Ways to Prove You’re Vaccinated (West Side Rag, Aug 5, 2021)

• Albert's first appearance on Techtonic, with Liz O'Sullivan: the March 23, 2020 episode

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PAST EPISODES: techtonic.fm lists recent Techtonic shows

PODCAST: Subscribe to the Techtonic podcast

Artist	Track	Album	Label	Approx. start time
Albert Fox Cahn discusses vaccine apps - and Apple's recent announcement about scanning private iPhone photos.
Tomaš Dvořák	Game Boy Tune "Game Boy Tune" by "Tomaš Dvořák"	Machinarium Soundtrack	Tomaš Dvořák
	Mark's intro "Mark's intro"
	Interview with Albert Fox Cahn "Interview with Albert Fox Cahn"			0:06:52 (Pop-up)
	Mark's comments "Mark's comments"			0:37:19 (Pop-up)
A Frames	Surveillance "Surveillance" by "A Frames"	S/T	Born Bad Records	0:55:02 (Pop-up)

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Listener comments!
	5:54pm listener james from westwood: FWIW this show is why I never allowed NJ to use my phone signal to alert me to COVID proximity. No idea how safe my data is in those hands.
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Techtapplicants!
	6:01pm Davi: Good night everyone!
	🤖 6:02pm tim from washington: Hey Mark and folks! I've been MIA from Techtonic for a few weeks. I'm glad to be back.
	6:02pm TDK60: Hi Mark.
	🤖 6:02pm Ken From Hyde Park: Hi, Mark and avatars!
	6:03pm queems: hello mark hurst & others
	6:04pm chris in the redwoods: hi, Mark and folks. also have not been around for a bit. glad to be listening in again.
	6:04pm The Butterman: Hi there Mark, hi Queems , I’m just here to get my weekly dose of paranoia.
	6:04pm queems: i made a folder on my phone and scanned my vaccine card. problem solved
	6:05pm I k e: Speaking of de Blasio, what is everyone's bet on what pathetic single digit he'll max out at in the Dem primary for governor? My money is on 1%.
	6:05pm queems: hello @the butterman, i hope you are holding up ok over there
	🤖 6:05pm Webhamster Henry: Best, obviously, would be a super-fast COVID detection test.
	🤖 6:05pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! Tech-heads!
	6:05pm chris in the redwoods: i did something similar, queems. not sure why i would get an app...
	6:05pm ARB: Hi Mark and fellow skeptechs!
	🤖 6:06pm David (in London): Evening Technoids.
	🤖 6:06pm Ken From Hyde Park: Nice work, DiL!
	6:06pm vanya moscow: Hi everyone. We have a personal QR-code to prove vaccine status here in Moscow, Russia
	6:06pm People Like Us: nice
	🤖 6:06pm Webhamster Henry: "Saddest Music" was a Sports movie? or just there as a baseline?
	6:07pm Franco Twinkie: Oh boy! The waters will be muddied even further. The future smells foul indeed.
	6:07pm chris in the redwoods: hey, David (iL). nice graphic!
	🤖 6:07pm David (in London): My pleasure, thanks for putting it up there Mark.
	6:07pm ultradamno: It was a competition
	6:08pm Carmichael: We have a QR code in California too.
	6:09pm Anonymous Anxious avoidant: Greetings Mark, guest、& listeners. What if you don’t have smartphone?
	6:09pm listener james from westwood: I keep hearing "Foxconn," which is a whole other can of worms.
	6:09pm vanya moscow: We used to have though a pretty creepy obligatory quarantine app to control your movement if you’re quarantined. Had to send selfies upon receiving sms in weird time several times a day to prove your phone with you. Did you have anything like it?
	🤖 6:09pm DjLorraine: Last night i had to admit my 73 yr old FUX news watcher friend to the hospital. He has covid and pulminary embolism.i was masked but Now i have to have to get tested. I told the hospital i have an oximeter and it was 85. They told me it's 98 and that's why they don't listen to people. I insisted i have an oximeter. They did the other hand and it was 81 and the alarm would not stop beeping.
	6:09pm Megaroni: This is feeling a bit like Invasion of The Bodysnatchers
	6:10pm Franco Twinkie: I was looking forward to wearing my CDC card as a fashion accessory and keeping my phone out of it.
	6:10pm melinda: @listener james me too!
	6:10pm ultradamno: Not saying Murderball seems like a oversight now. And wheelchairs are tech too.
	🤖 6:10pm Bas NL: NL has an app/QR available. But you can print yours from a computer; no need for a mobile app.
	6:10pm queems: @vanya lol no, the health department didn’t even contact me until 12 days into my 14 day quarantine
	🤖 6:11pm herb.nyc: I sometimes sharpie VACCINATED on my left arm, to show people. (On my right, I have SEE OTHER ARM)
	6:11pm chris in the redwoods: AAa, my advice is photocopy and laminate the copy of your cdc covid vaccine card and carry the copy around with you.
	🤖 6:11pm tim from washington: Dumb question. Why is an app more secure than CDC card?
	6:11pm Mark Hurst: Hi @james @ultra @Davi @tim @TDK @KfHP @queems @chris @Butterman @Ike @Webham @Bas @ARB @DiL @vanya @PLU/Vicki @Franco @Carmichael @Anxious @Lorraine @Megaroni @melinda @herb !! Thanks, everyone, for joining!
	6:12pm ultradamno: @TFW I can't see how it would be.
	6:12pm Franco Twinkie: Is good for discounts at Old Navy?
	🤖 6:13pm tim from washington: @herb.nyc - What if you're wearing long sleeves? Otherwise, excellent idea!!!!
	6:13pm queems: you can shrink the card down and laminate/put it in your wallet. i did that as well
	6:13pm Mark Hurst: @Tim and @chris, glad you're back with us this evening - welcome back to the dystopian fold!
	🤖 6:13pm Webhamster Henry: Yes the card is indeed clumsy and easily forgeable.
	6:14pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...they say don't laminate the actual card - cause boosters seem likely.
	6:14pm Mark Hurst: @vanya that's interesting about the QR code - that's exactly what Albert is worried about in our (New York State) Excelsior Pass
	6:14pm morphe': Same is true in the EU - Excelsior (QR) not accepted nor the 2 shot card .. Got my 3rd Moderna in Madrid and #4 next week to get my EU Pass too.
	🤖 6:14pm Webhamster Henry: RR63 I was just going to say that!
	6:15pm melinda: haha
	🤖 6:15pm Webhamster Henry: Well, you really want the COVID card in the Blockchain <ducking>
	6:15pm chris in the redwoods: i've seen privacy concerns around all the QR code menus at restaurants
	🤖 6:16pm Ken From Hyde Park: If we all just had "the chip" imbedded, it could easily be scanned and show them our status.
	🤖 6:16pm Webhamster Henry: I bet the Pandemic group disbanded by Trump might have had some ideas about cryptographic verification.
	6:16pm iiibeat: Turning people into operating systems . . Updates required. 666
	6:17pm Franco Twinkie: Also, a large part of the population no longer knows how to operate a piece of paper.
	6:17pm headcleaner: So true, Franco
	6:17pm TDK60: I'm stickin' with the paper card.
	6:18pm Carmichael: @Ken, I thought the vaccine did that.
	🤖 6:18pm tim from washington: @Franco - no kidding!
	🤖 6:19pm Bas NL: And then again... my sister had 2 x shots and still got Covid after that. So what does a pass prove?
	🤖 6:19pm Webhamster Henry: There was a similar effort for AIDS status back when it was realized there needed to be an anonymous way of exchanging that status, probably under situations with bad lighting.
	6:19pm headcleaner: It all comes down to this "everything needs to be an app" - and it's brother, "everyone has a smartphone" - mentality which, sadly, have pretty much eaten the world now
	6:20pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...& - may need to write on an unlaminated card again cause - just like the FluShot - no one knows precisely how long the Vax will last you. Originally they were saying probly nine months. Which is soon for me !! :O Aside I mean from likely needing Boosters for variants.
	6:20pm chris in the redwoods: that's an excellent question, Bas.
	6:20pm queems: if i just don’t go anywhere for the indefinite future none of this even applies to me
	6:21pm B R M: In July, I was at the Cannes Film Festival, where we were required to take a COVID test every 48 hours because France and the USA do not have a reciprocal recognition for vaccinated individuals- so Americans bringing home French vaccinations would not be recognized and vice versa. That part is politics and the proprietary status of vaccination apps (The EU has their own vaccine passport for which Americans are not eligible). Yet, at the airport, I could show my card and it was 100% fine because airlines have virtual approval pass systems, in my case, VERIFLY on American Airlines. It is a moving target as various countries have different ratings of one another's status, etc.
	6:22pm ultradamno: Soon, a captcha where you have to identify pictures of you.
	6:22pm Carmichael: I'm a luddite. How are QR codes not safe?
	🤖 6:22pm Webhamster Henry: CAPTCHAs will have you identify drone targets.
	6:23pm Franco Twinkie: Queems, you're right! Just stay in the house till you expire and everything will be fine.
	6:23pm chris in the redwoods: the website you're directed to, with the QR code, can do lots of stuff w/out your knowledge. i'm no security expert, Carm, but that's at least one thing i have heard.
	6:23pm ledzeppelinsucks: That Covid thing is a mid range bummer.
	6:24pm queems: @franco twinkie way ahead of you
	6:24pm iiibeat: So many open doors with this incredibly deep issue/situation . . Is it even possible to vaccinate against a mutating zootropic virus? Are we ushering in an authoritarian system of required updates/boosters?
	6:25pm ultradamno: I got one redeeming a Netflix gift card that was just one picture of a guy on a motorcycle broken into a grid with the instruction "identify every motorcycle". Subtle.
	6:25pm headcleaner: @Bas - "what does it prove?" - It's true that the vaccines don't offer perfect protection against infection (and against Delta, perhaps only 85-90 percent). But still that's far better than -no- protection as is the case without vaccines. It's not a perfect line of defense, but statistically speaking, still a fairly decent one. It's true that the vaccines don't offer perfect protection against infection (and against Delta, perhaps only 85-90 percent).
	🤖 6:25pm Webhamster Henry: Printing out a shrunken versions of your card. ENABLING THE EVIL PRINTER INK CONSORTIUM!
	🤖 6:25pm tim from washington: Good question, Carmichael. I don't know but as a skeptic I assume that they are. It'd be good to why.
	6:26pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: I suppose no Hackers or Scammers or for that matter Ideological Terrorists / AntiVaxxers will be drawn to this like monster magnets...
	6:26pm iiibeat: Rise again Luddites!! For Christ Sake!!
	🤖 6:26pm Ken From Hyde Park: On my headstone, maybe I'll have a QR code that points to partygirls.com.
	6:27pm headcleaner: Also - with so many people being vaxxed by now - it's not surprising (inevitable in fact) that everyone seems to know someone in their social orbeit who got infected despite being 2x vaxxed. That's just basic mathematics. (Right?) What matters is the overall statistical argument in favor vaxxing (and requiring proof thereof), which is quite solid
	6:28pm I k e: @iiibeat@6:24, 1) yes, it is, you ding-a-ling, and 2) was the polio vaccine authoritarianism? Gimme a break.
	🤖 6:28pm Webhamster Henry: @KenFH/P: "Don't Miss.... The Party Girls!"
	🤖 6:28pm Bas NL: @headcleaner The problem is vaccinated people ACT as if they are no longer a risk.
	6:29pm ultradamno: @Ike or smallpox, which was (thankfully) compulsory
	6:29pm chris in the redwoods: to Ike's point, and to Mark's point, iiibeat, its not the vaccines (which have quite a long and legal history of being mandated) its the technology being used that can exploit us.
	6:30pm headcleaner: @Bas - agreed
	6:30pm TDK60: So many vaxxed? I think we need to go higher. And about those poorer countries, Big Pharma?
	6:30pm Marie: People are suspicious about the speed of the CV vaccine but I think it was built on the research for the ebola vaccine--I think public health officials should talk about that. The underlying science was being researched for years
	6:30pm chris in the redwoods: *being used to track the vaccines
	6:30pm Carmichael: I'm vaxxed and don't consider myself to be a risk. To anyone except the unvaxxed, of course.
	6:31pm queems: THANKS APPLE
	6:31pm Marie: vaccine development (emph.)
	6:31pm I k e: @Marie, exactly. That's a hugely important point. Lots of coronaviruses were already out there and they were already being researched.
	6:32pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: It is because of AntiVaxxers the virus has a Petri dish to mutate ever stronger, more transmissible, & vaccine resistant variants. We do not owe AntiVaxxers a polite & tolerant place in any Forum. This is no game - this is everyone's life, health, socio-economics, cultures & survival - & more. It's been a year & a half. ENUFF.
	6:32pm iiibeat: @Ike . . And . . How is it possible? That wasn't a very convincing answer . . At all. Apples to oranges, man . . We are not talking about Polio. Context also mutates, believe it or not.
	🤖 6:32pm Bas NL: @Carmichael That's what my sister thought as well.
	6:33pm iiibeat: Eye in The Sky = Eye in Yo Eye.
	🤖 6:33pm Ken From Hyde Park: I understand the Beijing 2022 Winter Olympics are in six months. It'll be interesting to see their virus control procedures for visitors.
	6:34pm Marie: Thanks, Ike--I don't understand why public health officials speak of that
	🤖 6:34pm Webhamster Henry: Or.. the usual justification for every (questionable) tech advance: "It will help Our Troops!".
	6:34pm ottovonbqe: it defies logic that unvaccinated are a "Petri dish" you sound like a nazi.
	6:34pm Peter from Dover NJ: Mark, do you have any insight on the Docket appetite? being used as a vaxxport app here in NJ.
	6:34pm queems: that’s why i’ll never activate icloud
	6:34pm Marci: As a photo organizer this is frightening-what’s to stop Apple from viewing say naked baby photos (ie baby’s first bath) as “pornography”?
	6:34pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Granted - we should have had a WWII level of organizational coordination of resources - dissemination of Information - & collective Morale. With Drumpf we got the exact opposite - the worst kind of malfeasance. None of this is his to deal with now, however.
	6:35pm chris in the redwoods: ottovonbqe, it is exactly logical and scientific. look it up, please.
	6:35pm Marie: Apple appeals to people who want to trust "authority"
	6:35pm headcleaner: @Carmichael - unfortunately that isn't true. You can still catch (and spread) the virus, even if vaccinated. (The risk is small with "classic" covid -- but apparently much stronger with Delta). And when you consider events with rooms full of people yakking away like the pandemic is over and we're in the Roaring 20s now... that's pretty much exactly why Delta is surging right now. (On top of what all the anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are doing, of course).
	6:36pm Carmichael: I agree with RR, otto. The variant has a much more difficult time mutating through vaxxed people, while it rips freely through those with no vaxx, mutating all the way. Nothing Nazi about that, just basic science.
	6:36pm ottovonbqe: nonsense. unscientific and no different than nazi ideology.
	6:36pm headcleaner: I'm in the "just chuck 'em in the river" camp. Would do so myself except for the fact.. that I've never owned one of those buggers
	6:36pm I k e: @iiibeat, your paranoid ramblings might as well be Swahili to me.
	6:36pm Marie: Apple has created an "in group" that people feel good about being a member of--ur supposedly smarter and in the know about tech
	6:37pm ottovonbqe: "dirty unclean people infecting us good people"
	6:37pm Mark Hurst: Let's cool it on the nazi talk.. I'll invoke Godwin's Law & shut down those chat threads. Please keep it respectful
	6:37pm Little Danny: Great interview, Mark.
	🤖 6:38pm Bas NL: Mutation is possible in anyone infected. Vaccinated or not.
	6:39pm queems: at this stage in the game there is absolutely zero excuse for antivax sentiment, especially here. read the room
	6:39pm Carmichael: Agreed Bas, but the unvaxxed are taking the brunt of the variant. Although no one is truly safe, I would much rather be vaxxed.
	6:39pm chris in the redwoods: Bas, possible but significantly less likely, because the virus does not live as long in vaxxed people.
	6:40pm David in London: I don’t know whether it’s the same in the US, but here in the U.K. the banks, for example, have massively channel shifted toward mobile apps. If you chucked your mobile in the Hudson (that would take quite a throw from central London) or the Thames, it would be difficult to do basic banking. That’s so far it’s embedded in everyday life.
	6:41pm Glistener MW: I just tuned in to Mark bidding adieu to Mr Foxconn [sic:me] and thought for a split second it might be the figurehead behind the Foxconn iPhone factories
	6:41pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Yes - I believe the CDC is now saying the vaccinated should mask again - because we can carry a load of the new variant that is transmissible. ottovonbque - how on Earth are you & your sources more 'scientific' than what the CDC & WHO & 98% of the Global Medical Establishment say? & how are your sources more concerned with Humanity than them ? Our Well-Being is not what your & their resistance is about. It is other deep-seated social resentments & political advantages. & we're not impressed.
	6:42pm I k e: @David, I use an obscure credit union and do all my banking on a desktop or laptop at home, and only at home. Mobile banking makes me nervous, especially on wi-fi.
	6:44pm headcleaner: Bas - basically the answer to the problem you mentioned (vaxxed people acting like they're fully protected) is that we need much better enforcement of what everyone agrees are the basic safeguards that should be in place. All it takes is political will and a bit of creativity. For example, I'd love to see mask use actually -enforced- on the NYC subway. It would cost basically nothing (compared to the economic damage caused by the ongoing pandemic) and do a lot to bring the numbers down.
	6:46pm ultradamno: This could be a problem for the ever-popular strip club buffets.
	6:46pm I k e: There's a restaurant called Hot Space that I wanted to try, but they require you to scan a dumb QR code to get a table, and I'm like... no. Go to hell, there's plenty of other restaurants in this neighborhood. Ugh.
	🤖 6:47pm Webhamster Henry: Foursquare! I may have been the Mayor of Molé Molé here in Kingston.
	6:47pm iiibeat: @Ike . . Covid = Polio. Keep up the Good Work!!
	🤖 6:47pm Bas NL: @headcleaner I think we'd better stay watchful. In the NL things are opening up quickly and the infections are on a rise again.
	6:47pm headcleaner: David - haven't seen that particular form of abuse (force-feeding mobile banking) in the US yet. But by and large, it's just not that hard to avoid using phones - it just takes a bit of focus and imagination. On the order of say, avoiding chain stores and fast food.
	6:47pm Franco Twinkie: The first time I saw one of these adds I rubbed my eyes in disbelief. Just like the accelerated collapse of the entire eco system, the arrival of the inescapable and all consuming surveillance state makes me want to lay down and take a dirtnap ahead of schedule.
	6:47pm Roland from Australia: Yo brothers, A bit late for the tech tonic alarms today.
	🤖 6:48pm tim from washington: Ike just post what I was about to post about restaurants with QR codes.
	🤖 6:48pm Webhamster Henry: @Roland: what are Australian Vaccine status apps/cards like?
	6:49pm iiibeat: Patrick Henry once said . . "Give me Covid or Give Me DEATH!"
	6:50pm Carmichael: "COVID=Polio". Probably the dumbest thing I've heard today, Jason.
	6:50pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Bill of Digital Rights How can we make this a popular political imperative ?
	🤖 6:51pm Folsom: All I wanted was a Pepsi!!!
	6:51pm iiibeat: @Carmichael . . No shit!! And all I had to do in order to achieve that was . . Repeat it.
	6:53pm paul: should i get a smartphone? Ive been on the fence this past week. Just moved away from home to a new school
	6:54pm queems: @iiibeat nobody else said it though, you clown
	6:54pm yes but...: It's a slippery slope from tech-skepticism to anti-vaxxing talking points...The countries that had the best results pre-vaccine in dealing w Covid seemed to be the ones where tracing was most vigorous. The paper card isn't going to be meaningful in a contact tracing program (which doesn't really exist yet anyway here in the States)....
	6:54pm David in London: When 9/11 happened, a government advisor here was famously exposed as saying it was “a good day to bury bad news”. With that kind of attitude I shudder to think of all the things being buried - or introduced - under cover of this pandemic. Big tech must be having a flamin’ field day.
	6:54pm Dude: I got a card from Maimonides w my vaxx’ info Allgood Relax As for the recording device we all embrace Won’t be taking it to any felonies mmkay
	6:54pm ledzeppelinsucks: Vax cards are going to look like those old maintenance logs on the door jambs of cars.
	6:55pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: War is Peace Ignorance is Strength Unvaccinated is Health Panopticon is Privacy
	6:55pm I k e: @paul, if you decide you need one, you can get a cheap older one, like an iPhone 6. That's perfectly passable. Newest shit is absolutely unnecessary.
	6:55pm Richy4619: Enjoying listening, reading and grieving along. Thx Mark ~
	🤖 6:55pm Folsom: Bigfoot, paging Bigfoot, waiting for his presence
	6:55pm listener james from westwood: Thanks, Mark!
	6:55pm TDK60: Thanks, Mark. \| Get vaxxed!
	6:56pm Franco Twinkie: It is.
	6:56pm chris in the redwoods: thanks, Mark!
	6:56pm iiibeat: What was that tracking project implemented in Afghanistan by the US military?
	6:56pm Roland from Australia: Webb Hamster Henry - They only, afaik, ask where you are, based on the bar code you scan as you walk in to the store, So the onus is on the store to register the code and display printed on the door, and I understand that is what the app uses to determine where are you signed in and who else signed in there. But then again you just never know do you what exactly is collecting? I set mine to only allow location details as I sign in.
	6:56pm People Like Us: thanks Mark
	6:56pm ledzeppelinsucks: Sep is the month for new phones.
	🤖 6:56pm Bas NL: Thanks Mark!
	6:56pm David in London: Thanks Mark. Night Technoids.
	6:56pm Carmichael: Thanks Mark.
	6:56pm Dude: I got my covid positive four days post vax onebtw Duh duh duh Loved the meals. Didn’t do the hotel but soooo tempted
	🤖 6:56pm tim from washington: Thanks, Mark!
	6:57pm coelacanth∅: Thanks Mark
	🤖 6:57pm tim from washington: I LOVE THE A FRAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This song rules.
	6:57pm WFMU listener WADE: CRASS: "Where Next Columbus?"
	6:57pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, everyone! Sorry I forgot to say again: please stay tuned to WFMU for Do Or DIY with @People Like Us!
	6:57pm ultradamno: A Blumin Funyun!
	6:57pm Little Danny: Perfect closer.
	🤖 6:58pm Ken From Hyde Park: Thanks for, er, unmasking the inside info on vaccine tracking, Mark!
	🤖 6:58pm tim from washington: Man, if you like your music paranoid, you can't go wrong with A Frames.
	6:59pm StringOFperils: I think I'm being followed.
	🤖 6:59pm chresti: Hey a pizza cutter!
	6:59pm Roland from Australia: I’m fired up for the week again. Love this show!
	6:59pm chaos_in_la_la: 🔺🔺🔺
	6:59pm ultradamno: Still need to play Boys Next Door's "Somebody's Watching Me"
	7:00pm ledzeppelinsucks: That was delightful.
	7:00pm HyperDose: Riveting radio, Mark!
	7:02pm ARB: Thanks Mark!
	7:23pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: TY Always MH !

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from August 9, 2021

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